Bagwell deserves the opportunity to come back.
...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 08:02:00
Bagwell deserves the opportunity to come back.
1. This degenerative shoulder problem did not suddenly plague him last year. He has been dealing with it for the past four seasons. While it has progressively caused more and more discomfort (read: excruciating pain) for Bagwell, he has played through it, and -- while not hitting like his former MVP self -- has still had a top of the league OPS the last few years before the 2005 season. He finally opted for surgery because he could not play first base, unable to throw a baseball. But, because of the different motion involved in hitting, he was still a very capable hitter. Notwithstanding his inability to play the field, the fact that he finally had surgery should make him, at the very least, a serviceable top 1/3 of the league first baseman, hitting wise. He would be no worse than he was the last few years (before 2005), when he was still a darn good (though not great) hitter. Possibly, this surgery will allow him to become really good again, if not a true top stud. There is zero reason to think he would not be a legit big-league first baseman, hitting wise.
2. He had the surgery because he physically could not play first base any longer. If he is capable (not a terribly difficult threshold for a first baseman) of playing his position (read: able to throw from first to third without looking like my little sister), he WILL be good enough to be a legit big league first baseman.
3. This isn't a pity case or a hand out based on fan sentiment, team loyalty, or marketing (though, in my opinion, Drayton hasn't made the shrewdest marketing move here). There is every reason to believe the guy can still hit. If the surgery did what it was supposed to - allow him to play the field - he will be worthy of suiting up and playing for the 'stros.
He deserves a shot not ONLY because of what he has done for the franchise and the kind of team player/icon he has been (good reasons, but not enough by themselves), BUT because if the surgery was successful, he will be a good, perhaps very good, major league first baseman, and therefore an asset for the Astros. Not just as a marketing gimmick, but as a legit productive asset to the team.
It all comes down to this: will the surgery allow Bagwell to throw from first to third? Pretty clear standard, I think. Also, pretty low threshold, which I think Bagwell can clear (not to mention good marketing). Because it is both a clear and a low standard, the Astros would be wise to give Bagwell the chance -- it is worth the (gulp) $15.6 million gamble. (I realize that is not chump change - if he can play the field [there is that clear, low threshold again] - he is worth it).
Posted By : Marshall S
Stephen - I understand your post, but I have to re...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 08:55:00
Stephen - I understand your post, but I have to respectfully disagree with several of your points.
Now, I completely agree that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson do a lot of race baiting these days. It has been a long time since Jesse Jackson did anything substantive; yet, the man was extremely important in the 70's and 80's and said a lot of good things back when he was leading PUSH and running for President.
Yet, there are times in both sports and politics where the "race card" must be played - times when it is completely applicable. There exists such a stigma against it now (playing the race card, race baiting, etc. are all terms we use to discourage it), that I think that a lot of incidents and patterns of racism get shoved under the table.
The usage of stereotypes in the media and Hollywood does nothing to discourage this either.
On your point about minority groups, you must understand that most of these groups were founded as a way to network, and to protect the interests of the minority groups (not being discrimination against is one such interest), whereas one might argue that white males hardly need that group to be afforded the same networking opportunities and the same protections. Incidents of racism are still rampant on college campuses, after all.
And if you don't like these groups, go to one of their meetings and see what their mission is, talk to the members as an interested individual, and afterwards, you can pass judgement on them.
I would say that as long as there are incidents where one student is discriminated against due to gender, race or sexuality, these groups need to exist. BUT - I don't even think that is true. Rather, I would argue that even if we managed to eliminate racist incidents, and preferential treatment based on race, these groups should still exist because a lot of these groups, at least the good ones, do a lot to promote awareness and history, things that must be done to keep preferential treatment and racism at bay.
I agree that, sometimes, those groups exceed the boundaries of good taste in their missions, that, sometimes, a group formed to network becomes an insular, elitist cabal; which is why in college, I stayed away from the Asian organizations on campus.
But I see the point of these organizations. And they do often serve a very necessary purpose.
Your point, and tommie's point, that there is no racism, that there is a level playing field, and blacks are not being discriminated against, surprise me. Race is obviously a problem - if not in the form of slavery or Jim Crow, in other forms which sometimes are just as blatant.
This is my problem with the state of racial relationships. Even if we can argue that a lot of discrimination in this country is now founded on social class, race is obviously still an issue. We have to see it as one, and not assume that just because the Civil Rights Movement came and went, that we can go our separate ways, competing for the same jobs, living lives next to each other in harmony. Because that harmony isn't there. It may be there in your neighborhood, or your campus, but that doesn't mean it's not there in the rest of this country.
So many kids in school these days get taught Civil Rights and Black History as if there is nothing left to be done.
The same goes for feminism - so many people today see Feminism as a movement that's dead. They say that the new feminism isn't the same thing, that we don't have to worry about gender relationships anymore.
When you stop thinking about problems which are still present, like race and gender, you contribute to the overall atmosphere of complacency that I see today.
The playing field is not level. I'm not comfortable with the analogy, but if it's a game, it used to be a different sport. And while I'm heartened that we're at least playing the same sport now, there are a lot of problems that still need to be addressed.
Ignoring them don't make them go away. Affirmative action might not be the best solution, but if you don't like it, come up with something else.
Posted By : Satchmo
Sorry for the double post - please pardon the erro...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 08:59:00
Sorry for the double post - please pardon the errors in grammar and syntax in my post.
Posted By : Satchmo
I was just searching blogs,and I found your site, ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 09:27:00
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Posted By : Joe Berenguer
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 10:57:00
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Posted By : pheromone cologne
Stephen and Tommie,
I know you can do bette...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:02:00
Stephen and Tommie,
I know you can do better than that. Don't make it so easy for me.
Posted By : Andre Smith
FYI.
IMG FILES TRO AGAINST FOOTBALL MAR...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:30:00
FYI.
IMG FILES TRO AGAINST FOOTBALL MARKETING REP
BILL HENKEL FOR BREACH OF EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT
CLEVELAND, Ohio, January 31, 2006 – IMG today received a temporary restraining order against former employee Bill Henkel, who the company says violated his employment contract by soliciting IMG clients to leave the agency for Henkel's own newly-formed sports marketing business.
According to court documents filed today in the Court of Common Pleas Cuyahoga County, Ohio, Henkel is in flagrant violation of the non-solicitation provisions of his employee agreement. Among the IMG clients he has tried to solicit for his own business is NFL star LaDainian Tomlinson, who has long been represented by IMG Football President Tom Condon. LaDainian Tomlinson has signed an affidavit in support of IMG's claims stating that Henkel solicited him to leave IMG and that Henkel improperly agreed to accept a secret $75,000 side payment in connection with a memorabilia deal Henkel negotiated for Tomlinson.
Henkel worked in marketing for IMG's football division in Kansas City since 1988. He left the company in November 2005, while still under contract to IMG, and allegedly began contacting IMG's clients about leaving the agency for his new company. Henkel's employment contract with IMG specifically prohibits Henkel from soliciting IMG clients for two years and prospective IMG clients with whom he had contact while at IMG for one year. In addition to breaching his contract by trying to lure IMG's clients to leave IMG and become represented by his new agency, IMG alleged that Henkel also tortiously interfered with the contractual relationships between IMG and its clients.
The temporary restraining order enforces the terms of Henkel's employment contract with IMG prohibiting him from soliciting any IMG clients for two years and any prospective IMG clients with whom he had contact while at IMG for one year. IMG may take additional legal action against Henkel.
Posted By : Anonymous
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:41:00
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Posted By : design build
Andre, if it was so easy, then where is your argue...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:43:00
Andre, if it was so easy, then where is your arguement?
Or is that what are desperately seeking at this time?
I understand there is no clear cut answer for any of this, however some of your opinions are on the wrong side of the tracks. If everyone else is so wrong, support some of your answers. You seem to blog with frustration and an eye geared towards racism.
Please have some substance in your blogs and articles.
Posted By : tommie
I think this has gotten way out of hand. We are ta...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:49:00
I think this has gotten way out of hand. We are talking about mascots here. I am sure every mascot or nickname is offensive to someone. It is all about sports and entertainment.
Posted By : tommie
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 11:59:00
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 12:19:00
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Posted By : William
tommie - you can't expect someone to respond in a ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 12:59:00
tommie - you can't expect someone to respond in a way that would promote debate after you
a) say that racism does not exist any more
and
b) explain the existence of any racism by accusing people who see racism in our society as racists themselves.
There nothing to argue about there, because those statements are completely false (not to mention insulting).
I'll give you an example of sexism that exists (I won't debate which is worse today, but suffice to say I think they're both pretty rampant). I just picked it because it just came to mind when I was reading your comments.
A little while back, the president of Harvard (sorry Mike), Dr. (!!!) Lawrence Summers, made statements to the effect that women were less innately skilled in math and science than men. Of course, this raised a huge uproar, but this shows the kind of ignorance that pervades even our highest institutions.
There are many people who still think things like this - look at sports. Look at comments by coaches about recruiting more blacks, under the assumption that blacks are more athletic than whites and that by lowering admission standards, more blacks will qualify (I believe the example I am thinking of for that second part didn't come from a coach, but the point still applies).
Ask yourself why there are so many African American players, but so few African American coaches, in the NFL.
Ask yourself why there are so many African American players in the NFL, but so few African American quarterbacks.
Is it because African Americans are less skilled at coaching or quarterback-ing? Or do people make assumptions about their capacity to teach and their capacity to play a "cerebral" position?
These assumptions about genetic superiority are just as bad now as when "scientists" "measured" the skulls of whites and blacks and found that the whites had larger brains in the 19th century. Or when phrenologists explained the "savages" by the bumps on their heads.
Racism was an institution then. Racism is an institution now.
And that's a fact.
Posted By : Satchmo
howdy - you hvae an interesting blog and I enjoyed...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 13:01:00
howdy - you hvae an interesting blog and I enjoyed reading it! I know I like it when people appreciate my work, so I thought I would give you some credit!
Thanks,
fantasy football
Posted By : fantasy football
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 13:04:00
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fantasy football draft
Posted By : fantasy football draft
Ahhh Satchmo, I LOVE that argument about the Harva...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 13:37:00
Ahhh Satchmo, I LOVE that argument about the Harvard president saying that men and women differ in math and science!
If that is true, and i'm not arguing it is, why does it matter?
If a black makes a better QB, then let him QB. People are so quick with the "R" word, that it completely kills debate. Conversely, with "feminists", if you are better at math and science than males, then go do something math related! It simplyl doesn't matter.
Would you agree that men make better soldiers than women? Or that simply put, women should be allowed on the front lines in battle? I argue that women should not be in any capacity be able to be put into a situation that puts them in combats way.
Andre, when you make comments like that "you all make it too easy," are you saying that I'm fitting into your "Stereotype" of what you think that white people think? I'm just wondering. With such a short comment, it's hard to read too much into it.
With the NBA "appearing" to be mostly black, it would lead me to believe that blacks are better basketball players than whites are. Are there some good white b'ball players? Absolutely. Am I offended that there are more blacks in b'ball? No. I have more to worry about than color of skin.
Thanks for trying though.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
You raise a good question. Where do you draw the l...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 13:57:00
You raise a good question. Where do you draw the line with technology? The technology doesn't end with just regards to the enhancing of the body.How about technological advancements in equipment? Golf balls and clubs, aluminum bats,tennis racquets, speed skates,javelin, the list goes on.All of these technological advances changed the way their sport is played.
Technological advancements in eqipment that seem minor can dramatically alter the skills necessary to play the sport.
Aluminum bats altered pitching styles. In curling the bristle broom replaced the corn broom. The result is that less effort is required with sweeping and you can keep the rock straighter longer and make them curl easier. It changed the sport.
What all technological advancements in equipment seem to have in common is that it tends to favor a particular type of athlete. Either those that can afford to pay for the changes or the edge to physical. Power replaces finesse.
So the question is if sports organizations primary function is to ensure that the playing field is level, where does technological advancements in equipment figure in the mix?
Posted By : RJZ
Stephen -
The problem with the comment by S...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 14:40:00
Stephen -
The problem with the comment by Summers was that he said, disparity in test scores could be attributed to innate gender differences. Now, while the test discrepancy is there, his conclusion is what is completely unfounded.
The reason I cite that as an example of blatant sexism is because in addition to the statement being inane, it shows how people are discouraged from pursuing certain jobs or types of jobs. Furthermore, it illustrates the discrimination that can exist when individuals are being evaluated FOR those jobs.
What if Summers was conducting a job search? Would he discredit an otherwise qualified applicant due to her gender, his rationale perhaps being that science doesn't come as quickly or intuitively to women? I'm not saying that's his actual view, but his statement is the equivalent of it.
What about the glass ceiling that still exists? Female CEOs and CFOs are still a vast minority. Women are regularly passed up for promotions for jobs that require them to be more decisive, because the perception is that men are more decisive than women. I call that sexism.
In Japan, women are often passed up for jobs because it is assumed they will go start a family and need maternity leave. It happens here, but to a lesser extent. I call that sexism.
What about women like Hillary Clinton? When a man plays hardball, is a political insider, and collects power, he's just playing the game. When a woman does it, she's seen as a bitch. I call that sexist.
As for women in the military, would you agree that it is possible that men make better soldiers because our culture places more value on men in combat situations and places more value on men to perform tasks of physical labor? I have no problem with women in the military.
Going to the sports side, you didn't address the issue of African American coaches. My contention is that African Americans are discouraged from being coaches by the culture of the NFL. I see this as racist, because it seems evident to me that there are plenty of African American men who could be good coaches, who are currently excellent assistants, and get passed up for coaching jobs. This has been in the news a lot lately, so I don't really want to belabor the point.
But your comment on the NBA is what I'm trying to point out as a subtle type of racism. Are there more African Americans in the NBA? Yes. Does it mean they are better athletes? No. You use the point to apparently illustrate how you don't mind that the profession is predominantly African American. You don't mind it, but you do seem to think African Americans make better basketball players. Do you they innately worse at other things?
But the R word, as you call it, doesn't stifle conversation. But you need to see what you're doing. You're placing such a stigma on using the "R word" that you're essentially precluding any conversation on the subject. Your mocking it as the "R Word" is what stifles debate.
Racism. I said the word. Oooh. Racism. I said it again. It's there. There's ample evidence of it. It's unfortunate that you choose not to see it.
Here's one more example. Profiling in real estate. A study recently illustrated how much easier it was to go see a property when the inquirer was white. All other things, age, sex, salary, were equal. But bias made it easier for the white male to see the property, whereas the black male was encouraged to explore other options in the area, was asked questions about whether he had a criminal record, etc.
Posted By : Satchmo
Good call on the Realtor too. I am a licensed rea...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 15:51:00
Good call on the Realtor too. I am a licensed realtor here, and I've never shown someone one property over another based on their race. Ever. I show what people want to see. Period. Fair Housing Act stifles this kind of "racism."
Do I think black are innately worse at other sports b/c they are better b'ball athletes? No. I didn't say that. There are more blacks in b'ball. Fact. Does that mean they are better than whites in b'ball? Well, seems to me it does, or there would be an equal number of whites, right? If b'ball was a company, this would be racism. Since it's not, it's not racism.
Women in combat? Never! Has nothing to do with me being sexist and everything to do with me wanting a man that can get fierce and has testosterone and can lift more than his body weight (maybe mine too if I need help). Now, maybe you have a woman like Hillary that calls me sexist. Fine, whatever. I don't care. That's just how it is. I'll never be able to do some things as good as a woman, and they will never be able to do some things as well as me. Doesn't make me or them better, just DIFFERENT. Why is that so hard a pill to swallow?
For coaches... it's a free market. IF there were black coaches that would be better, FINE! Make it so! Who cares? I just don't see it as a problem. Where is the outrage that most NBA players are black? There isn't any, is there?
Glass ceiling? Well, I'm apparently not qualified to talk about this, however, I will say that the market bears all. Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman come to mind as CEO's. Carly sucked, but Meg rocks. See how the market is working? And yeah, there are plenty of men that suck as CEO's too (Ford, Lay, Eisner, Ebbers...)
The problem with the "R" word, is the same as the "N" word. No "white" person wants to be seen as saying either. It's racism per se!!! However, blacks and others can say it with impunity and NOTHING comes of it. Ever. You call a white person a racist, and debate ends. Seriously, that is one of the worst things to call a white guy (or lady I presume). If a white person screams reverse discrimination, well, we get labeled a certain way for it.
It's an education problem my friend. I blame our society's problem on education, and not for lack of trying on the schools (or Governments) part.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Stephen - Some points we can discuss here.
...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 16:55:00
Stephen - Some points we can discuss here.
The fact that you don't show preferential treatment in the workplace based on race is great. But it has been shown that, despite the Fair Housing Act, preferential treatment is given. This just goes to show that racism is alive and well. You're doing your part in defeating it when you don't show preferential treatment, but the reality is that racism is still out there. And by ignoring it in other parts of our lives, we help perpetuate it.
The reason I started these long winded comments is that I read comments like "there is no playing field," which is completely false.
Do I think black are innately worse at other sports b/c they are better b'ball athletes? No. I didn't say that. There are more blacks in b'ball. Fact. Does that mean they are better than whites in b'ball? Well, seems to me it does, or there would be an equal number of whites, right? If b'ball was a company, this would be racism. Since it's not, it's not racism.
I feel it is very important to address the above point. Perhaps basketball today is advertised and targeted towards African Americans. Could this not push more African Americans towards the sport, and therefore lead to more African Americans in the sport? The irony of this marketing is that the NBA imposes the dress-code on its players while promoting games like NBA Street, which has bling written all over it. But either way, I don't think you can say "blacks are better than whites as basketball" without understanding the above point, as well as the implication that is made without the above knowledge.
It would be all fine and dandy if African American coaches (or coaches-to-be) had a free market. But the preferential treatment shown to white males seems be pretty antithetical to a free market.
On your point on glass ceilings, there are more female CEOs now than there were before. But they're still not equally represented. And no one ever said gender had anything to do with quality. But at the same time, gender does still dictate your right at a fair chance. And that's part of the problem.
You call a white person a racist, and debate ends.
See, I don't understand this point. In my opinion, you call someone a racist, and the debate is just beginning. Why are they a racist? What assumptions are they making? What stereotypes are they using that makes their treatment of others preferential? Even if the truth is ugly, it's still the truth. And there are a lot of racists, and they have all kinds of skin tone.
So to you, I say this - don't be afraid to call someone a racist, even if that person is black, and you're white. Because if you have a legitimate argument, your case is as good as his. We just won't know whose argument is more legit until we hear them both.
If there's an affirmative action bake sale and they're charging whites more money, then, yes, that's going too far. But you can't say that whites are discriminated against more than blacks today, because from the corporate environment to the sports world, it is evident that the exact opposite is still true.
It's an education problem my friend.
Bingo. It is an education problem. But the government and the media does not do nearly enough to fix the education we get in and out of school.
Posted By : Satchmo
What in the world is the world...Some people belie...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 16:58:00
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Posted By : Fallbrook remodeling
How could any sound organization hire such a despi...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 17:34:00
How could any sound organization hire such a despicable human being? In answering my own question, perhaps they are not "sound".
-Chad
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
satchmo,
i never said racism doesnt exist, jus...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 18:34:00
satchmo,
i never said racism doesnt exist, just not to the extent people make it out to be. There are certain people in this world who look for racism is everything. What about players, they are mostly black in the NFL and NBA. Do white people complain they are not being given a shot to play? What about coaches assistant coaches in the NBA?
Why arent there a lot of good white running backs?
well who knows, the best players for each job gets those jobs!
When you address my arguements directly on their face, or my reply to someones, then your words will hold more value.
Posted By : tommie
Just to clarify - Bliss was hired by Dakota last J...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 19:29:00
Just to clarify - Bliss was hired by Dakota last July. So I wouldnt say he was "just hired".
Posted By : Anonymous
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Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 19:57:00
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Posted By : Carlsbad building
Tommie - This comment is directed towards your com...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 20:42:00
Tommie - This comment is directed towards your comment.
I don't see how a large proportion of African Americans in the NFL or NBA is an example of racism against white people. If anything, the fact that the vast majority of owners and coaches are white, and control the majority of capital, shows that the NBA and NFL are racist entities in the other direction.
Basketball is marketed heavily towards African American demographics. So why does it surprise you when a lot of African American kids are playing basketball?
Talented players of all skin tones get drafted. The key there is talent. To my knowledge, there aren't too many cases of purported racism in the draft - where an African American player of equal ability to a Caucasian player was selected first.
Now, we can talk about how Dwight Howard was selected early, and how people didn't complain as much about his selection because he's more religious and "mature" (compared to other prep-to-pros) But that's not racist so much as age discrimination.
However, a lot of people will tell you that talent does not receive as much weight as it should when it comes to coaching. Preferential hiring of Caucasians in the NBA and NFL is increasingly in the spotlight.
The best individuals suited for those jobs are not getting them. That's the point. If you believe that Ty Willingham didn't get a fair shot because of his race, then the individuals suited for the jobs aren't being allowed to keep them either.
Further, look at the racist environment that is allowed to exist in the NBA - Phil Jackson has made numerous comments degrading African Americans, saying that their listening to rap music makes them incapable of memorizing complex plays. Yet, his image as some kind of Zen guru persists, when it is increasingly evident to me that Jackson is nothing but a spot-light chasing money-hungry racist. Who happens to have coached three of the most talented players every to play in the NBA.
How about owners? I'm not quite as familiar on this subject, but there are no African American managaing partners in the MLB. Someone with more expertise on ownership in the MLB will have to tell me if there have been allegations of owner collusion to keep the minorities out, although Arte Moreno is one example of the contrary. Even so, it does surprise me that with so many ex-players interested in partial ownership of teams, there aren't more minority managing partners in the NBA or the MLB.
Tommie - point me out people who "see racism in everything." Who are these people that you speak of? Are you talking about Al Sharpton? Even if some of the issues Sharpton has championed don't have race behind them, can you really say that none of them do? I doubt it.
Don't say "the playing field is level" and then say that racism does exist. It exists, and it's in a lot of institutions. The playing field is not level. Not even close. We can talk about racism and socioeconomic status and which one plays more of a role perhaps, but to diminish the presence of racism in our society is to turn a blind eye to reality.
Posted By : Satchmo
To answer the question: "What did TO say that he d...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 21:51:00
To answer the question: "What did TO say that he did not honestly believe?"
Perhaps you meant this rhetorically? But part of the Eagles claim is just that: TO lied when he made the statement that there was a waiver signed that protected the Eagles from liabilty if TO was hurt. And TO knows it was a lie.
Of course, I (nor I suspect, you) know whether this is a true or not. However, the Eagles documents submitted to arbitration, including a personal letter from Reid to Owens, make pretty clear that their position was genuinely that no such waiver ever existed.
Oh, the second statement that TO may have made that he did not honestly believe was questioning Jeff Garcia's sexual orientation (when Garcia claims TO knew his girlfriend, etc.).
Like I said, who knows what was in TO's head --- but perhaps TO was not "just being honest."
Posted By : Josh
tommie, I agree that football and basketball contr...
Message posted on : 2006-02-01 - 22:58:00
tommie, I agree that football and basketball contracts are different. That is why football players receive large signing bonuses. True they can be cut after a bad season. I know salespeople who lost their job after a bad quarter.That is allowed because of the Players Association. When you say players are continuosly taken advantage of by owners, do you mean all sports or just football? How are they being taken advantaged of? You also state that maybe it was time for a player to voice his opinion.Opinion that he was unhappy with the contract he agreed to or the system? If it is the contract, that's on him. No one forced him to sign that agreement. If it is the system , then his unhappiness is with the Player's Association that negotiated the agreement that allows for a player to be released and the contract terminated.
As for Artest, you are correct, the Pacers did bench him. I agree with you that Artest probably gets blamed more than he deserves. I found it interesting that the Pacers benched him after those comments. My thoughts are they were probably just tired of having to deal with Artest.
Posted By : RJZ
Anonymous: thanks for that story, I was not...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 00:10:00
Anonymous: thanks for that story, I was not aware of it, and it would make a good post sometime soon.
Ryguy: Thanks for your kind words about the Blog. I will check with Mike Sopko at Duke Law about your question. I appreciate you wanting to see the symposium, and hopefully it is available after the initial airing.
Posted By : Michael McCann
<
Dave Bliss was hired long before the season starte...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 01:06:00
Dave Bliss was hired long before the season started. I am from Bismarck, North Dakota, where the Dakota Wizards are based. However, if you'd look at the Wizards message board, dakotawizards.com/forum, you'd be able to see the fans aren't impressed with his hiring either, even this late into the season.
Posted By : scottschroeder
If I decide to create an arbitrary statistic calle...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 01:11:00
If I decide to create an arbitrary statistic called "expletive average," where I determine the number of times a movie says a bad word and divide that by the movie length, does a movie producer and/or theatre have ownership of that statistic?
I say no way.
This would create both bad law and bad public relations between fantasy baseball fans and the MLB.
Posted By : reedster
This may or may not be relevant, but NFL players d...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 10:21:00
This may or may not be relevant, but NFL players do not earn a salary for the SB. Their salary (generally) is paid out in 17 equal weekly installments over the course of the regular season. Playoff money is a set amount that depends on the game played, and for the SB, whether you win or lose. This is treated as a benefit under the CBA.
Posted By : Anonymous
Satchmo,
Ty Willingham led Notre Dame down, n...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:11:00
Satchmo,
Ty Willingham led Notre Dame down, not up. The direction he was leading the storied college was horrible. If you look at how his teams won, you would understand that. They barely won those games, especially in his first year. I have watched every notre dame game since i was little kid and he did not do good. He ruined several players at that school including julius jones, maurice stovall, and brady quinn. Charlie Weis is on of the best coaches in football. A smart athletic director will fix something right before its about to brake and hit rock bottom, rather than when it hits rock bottom.
People (it seems you fit into this) try and blam race everytime a black coach gets fired or doesnt get the job.
How about all of the white candidates who got passed up in the nfl? Jim Bates, Al sunders, Hiemerdinger, martz, vitt, and the list goes on. Please there are at least two arguements to every issue. And that leads to my other point of saying people have the ability to argue white players are not getting a fair shot in sports, but are scared to be labeled racist. But when someone suggests that a person like yourself brings the same arguement others bring when they say minorities are getting a fair shot. And you say basketball is marketed heavily towards blacks, well most of the revenue comes from whites, and in football it is heavily marketed towards whites?
So what is your point? Please expand on marketing and revenue and elaborate on this theory.
One more thing is the owners. It is difficult to control owners. Money talks in this business. Owners arent hired and fired. That is a whole different issue.
Posted By : tommie
Scott,
Thanks for updating me. And I'm gla...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:31:00
Scott,
Thanks for updating me. And I'm glad to see you guys took a stand.
Andre
Posted By : Andre Smith
You are correct about the salary. But for tax pur...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:37:00
You are correct about the salary. But for tax purposes (federal, state and local) it doesn't matter how compensation is characterized, it is income nonetheless--even if it is not paid in case, even if it is for you but you have them give it to a charity. All "accessions to wealth" in any form are subject to tax.
Posted By : Andre Smith
Whether he was "just hired" or "hired in July" is ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:44:00
Whether he was "just hired" or "hired in July" is a distinction without a difference.
Posted By : jmsylla
The procedures for appeal and decision constitute ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:51:00
The procedures for appeal and decision constitute private "sports law".
Posted By : Andre Smith
The illegal drug tax? Please explain. So, Pablo ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 11:52:00
The illegal drug tax? Please explain. So, Pablo Escobar has to charge an extra $1,000 for a kilogram of cocaine in those states? Hmmm.
Posted By : Que891
Affimative action at its core is a recognition of ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 12:25:00
Affimative action at its core is a recognition of the social (and economic) tendencies of members of a majority group to unfairly take advantage of members of a minority group. American jurisprudence is replete with laws recognizing this reality (e.g., securities laws with minority stockholders' protection provisions). The ire of the victims of "reverse discrimination" seems a bit irrational to me.
Posted By : JMS
What in the world is the world...Some people belie...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 12:28:00
What in the world is the world...Some people believe that to create is great but build is like changing the past forever... If you want to create a beautiful home Visit Fallbrook remodeling and you can see what a little change can create..
Posted By : Fallbrook remodeling
Tommie - First of all, I said If you believe T...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 12:36:00
Tommie - First of all, I said If you believe Ty Willingham... I don't know that Willingham's firing was based on race. I admit his performance probably had something to do with it.
I don't agree that everytime a black coach is fired, it's based on race. I don't think there is anyone who thinks that way. That's absurd, and it's insulting that you think that's my opinion. Talk about generalizations. Please think the next time you write something like that.
But I do think that many coaches get long leashes after they make insensitive comments about minorities and women. Joe Paterno and Fisher DeBerry were just the latest ones. Sometimes, the coaches resign (Larry Cochell - OU). Sometimes they don't. But either way, there are too many people who hear those comments and either
a) accept what they say as truth
b) give them a pass because they're distinguished
or
c) give them a pass because of their profession.
I don't believe that should be the case. I think tolerance of racism, sexism and homophobia is rampant in our sports, even at the college level, and I find it shocking that you don't see that, apparently to any significant degree.
And as for minority hiring, I often wonder why Norm Chow doesn't get more offers to be a head coach. He has turned down one job, but even he has admitted "people are not knocking at my door." I don't know how much race has to do with it, but why is aren't people kicking his door in to sign him to a head coaching position? Chow is one of the most distinguished (THE most distinguised?) assistant coaches of all time. Everyone recognizes that the man is a guru of offensive coaching. And yet he has never, not for one day, been a head coach for any NCAA team or NFL organization. And he does want to be a head coach. He has said as much.
He's been the victim of racism too. One of the reasons he left BYU was because of racially insensitive comments made by a VP there.
I'm not sure what your next statement is even trying to get at. Who says white people aren't getting a fair shot in sports? Are you saying that? And I think minorities get a lot of chances, as players. I think there is discrimination elsewhere though, and I think there is discrimination in the way minority atheletes are treated on and off the field of play, in how they are treated by their organizations, their leagues and their coaches.
On owners - you're right that owners largely can't be controlled. They can't. It's not quite the same today, but in the past, ownership of sports clubs has been a largely exclusive society of rich Caucasian males. Again, I don't know myself how much race plays into ownership dynamics now, so someone else can get into that more.
You never answered my question about your generalizations. I still want to know who "sees racism in everything."
Posted By : Satchmo
Believe it or not, yes. The U.S. and its states h...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 12:50:00
Believe it or not, yes. The U.S. and its states have the authority to lay excise taxes on the privilege of transferring goods (even illegal ones) and income tax on the receipt of income even if it is illegal. Al Capone went down on tax charges. Frequently, when the government doesn't have enough proof to charge someone with a crime (securities fraud, drug dealing, whatever), they will charge them criminally with tax evasion and also recover illgotten gains through the civil tax suit, where the government will seek the tax, interest, negligence penalties, failure to file penalties, substantial understatement penalties, and civil fraud in addition to the criminal fraud).
Posted By : Andre Smith
satchmo,
there are several people in this worl...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 14:32:00
satchmo,
there are several people in this world white and black, and of all races who look for a reason to find racism in everything. I am not saying you. It is evident in the world, right when something happens people are quick to shout racism. When Willingham had gotten fired, that was a major issue. An ESPN columnist, Jason Witlock, who has some decent work, wrote a poor article about that. A lot of people are quick to point things out and blame race. Whether it is in sports or employment or admission to something.
A lot of people get passed over for jobs, not just black peoplel. There are some that may have deserved a shot like Maurice Carthon. But minorities just started getting more noticed in the coaching field. Maybe they have to prove themselves more, as do all of the canditates who got bypassed.
A lot of big names got bypassed this year. But how can you disagree with any of the teams hirings? I like the NY Jets and I love Eric Mangini, I think he is going to be great. Where there others more qualified? Yes, however he has the makings of a great coach, a Bill Parcells.
There was a blog in the past i wrote about Joe Paterno, who has been around the game a long time, and says what he sees. If it has to do with race, so be it. All he said was the game has changed because of the more speed and skill that the black athlete has brought. Offenses are now geared towards speed, look how Notre Dame and Nebraska had to change to be successful.
As for Norm Chow, I do not know much about him, however maybe he needs to prove himself in the NFL or away from Pete Carrol. Maybe thats what takes a lot of people a long time to get a job, like Holmgren's O coord and Andy Reid's.
Posted By : tommie
If you can win or make someone money, you will be ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 14:39:00
If you can win or make someone money, you will be hired. Look at Jim Harrick. Granted this was a criminal matter with Bliss and everybody deserves a second chance, however, if you are good at what you do, there will always be work.
Posted By : tommie
Older webcasts are usually posted below the curren...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 14:54:00
Older webcasts are usually posted below the current one on the link above.
Thanks for coming today, Professor McCann.
Posted By : Ryan
Tommie - Norm Chow has proven himself awa...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 15:05:00
Tommie - Norm Chow has proven himself away from Pete Carroll. He coached Phillip Rivers for 1 year, and helped bring NC State to a Bowl Game. He spent 27-odd years with BYU, including 1984 when they won the National Championship.
If that's not being proven away from Pete Carroll, I don't know what is. Chow has received numerous accolades not just from his USC work, but from his work with QBs like Steve Young. He's been the coach for some of the most prolific offenses in NCAA football history, if I remember correctly (not just USC). His record is, for lack of a better word, impeccable.
I do agree that a lot of people who are not black (or who are not minorities for that matter) get passed up for jobs. But why should it take more experience and more success for minority coaches to get equal consideration? Or any consideration for that matter?
One of the problems is that many teams go into a hiring phase with one person in mind. Mangini and the Jets is one such example. But like no-bid contracts are bad for the government, so is going into a hiring with one target.
And finally, I don't know that there are so many people that attribute everything to racism. But if there are so many cases in which people shout racism, isn't it more than likely that at least some of those shouts are warranted? Isn't it more logical to assume that some of the accusations are legitimate than assume that anyone who shouts racism is lying?
Posted By : Satchmo
This is one of my biggest problems with tax law (f...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 16:15:00
This is one of my biggest problems with tax law (from a legal perspective, not a social one). In essence, you can be double punished for illegal activities -- for both the underlying activity and for failing to report the income. But reporting the income is not a violation of the Fifth Amendment self-incrimination clause. I am not in favor of making it easier for criminals to hide illicit income, but it seems like there is a disconnect here under current legal principles.
Posted By : Greg Skidmore
Although people may say that I'm just "hating" on ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 16:45:00
Although people may say that I'm just "hating" on ND as a BC grad, I do take some offense to the ND mascot as an Irish American. While I cannot deny enjoying the occasional pint and I certainly have gotten into some scraps in my day, having a mascot bearing a strong resemblance to some of the simian-like depictions of the Irish a la Thomas Nast is a bit offensive.
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/nast.htm
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Cool site! iCheck out mine if you want.
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 16:55:00
Cool site! iCheck out mine if you want.
Posted By : Anonymous
Cool site! iCheck out mine if you want.
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 16:58:00
Cool site! iCheck out mine if you want.
Posted By : Anonymous
Hi - I was searching for blogs about associations ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 17:17:00
Hi - I was searching for blogs about associations and found yours. Reason I was searching for associations is I have one and I'm looking for ways people run theirs.
Posted By : Anonymous
S. Levitt has made this comparison to other commis...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 18:11:00
S. Levitt has made this comparison to other commission-based occupations, specifically real estate. There will eventually be a critical threshold at which the markets for both will exceed what the suspending elements can bear, and a different structure for compensation will emerge.
Posted By : tim in tampa
Great article! I'm one of the "NRA" shirt wearers...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 18:14:00
Great article! I'm one of the "NRA" shirt wearers on Professor McCann's campus. I have a massive GLOCK sticker on my computer, and you can ask anyone around campus where I stand on the issue of firearms. (I even invited Professor McCann to the range with me next time I go!)
I can't imagine a professor (or teacher) telling me not to wear a specific kind of shirt in class, however, if it was something soooo distracting that I was becoming a problem, then so be it. I can't fathom a sports jersey causing that much of a big uproar, but, we do it with colors in certain schools. (i.e., you can't wear red or blue on a hat because it's a "gang" color).
I can't wait until I see the day one of these topics is "XXXX Violates 2nd Amendment rights of young American" :)
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Just wanted to pass this article along to you. Th...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 18:18:00
Just wanted to pass this article along to you. This article pretty much sums up my point. It's a good read if you can stomach it (I for one do not want a Nazi flag flying next to my USA flag)
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48635
""Civil rights activist and NAACP Chairman Julian Bond delivered a blistering partisan speech at Fayetteville State University in North Carolina last night, equating the Republican Party with the Nazi Party and characterizing Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her predecessor, Colin Powell, as "tokens."
"The Republican Party would have the American flag and the swastika flying side by side," he charged.""
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Satchmo,
if you are a GM and have one guy in m...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 19:50:00
Satchmo,
if you are a GM and have one guy in mind, then you have every right to hire him. The lions did it with Mariucci a few years ago (althoght that didnt pan out, whosever fault that may have been). If Bill Belicheck is a free agent next year (hypothetically), would you want to interview anyone else?
The Lakers wanted Phil Jackson, the Knicks wanted him or Larry Brown. Those were their men.
While some shouts are warranted, we know some or definately not, especially some things said in this blog article.
Posted By : tommie
Stephen - Yes, some people take it too far. The R...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 19:53:00
Stephen - Yes, some people take it too far. The Republican party is not the same as the Nazis. No shit. But to take statements like that, and then contend that racism is not a problem in the US, is missing several steps in logic. Probably enough steps to climb from the bottom of the Statue of Liberty to the top. It's a long way, in logic and in reality.
A lot of people took offense to that speech, and rightfully so. However, that does not in any way mean that whites are discriminated more than minorities in this country, which is a statement you made in an earlier comment.
Is it unfortunate that the chairman of the NAACP made those statements? Yes. There's also a reason why the NAACP has lost a lot of clout and respect in this country.
That doesn't mean that whites are more discriminated against. You're using one example of discrimination and hate speech by someone in a prominent position to justify a broad politcal and social statement. I think that's a bit disingenuous.
In the article, it even says The talk so infuriated at least one black family in attendance among the 900 in the auditorium that they got up in walked out in protest. As I said, a lot of people were angered by it. It's not like everyone stood up at the end of the speech and cheered the man.
Posted By : Satchmo
Satchmo, my friend, we need to agree to disagree. ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 20:12:00
Satchmo, my friend, we need to agree to disagree. I am not even a white male (I'm a "Greek-American"). Although, I do get lumped into the "white" category.
I posted that article simply to demonstrate what the "black community" is talking about. It is sickening. As was the comment by one of the faculty at NC State. Visiting prof Kamau Kambon called for the "extermination of white people"
(Link: http://www.johnlocke.org/lockerroom/lockerroom.html?id=5853)
What about the "nation of Islam?" NAACP does not seem to have lost any clout in modern days.
What about the comment by Sheila Jackson Lee (Congresswoman out of Texas) to name hurricanes "black sounding names?"
(Link: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33896)
And your comment on "at least ONE family left?" Come one. 900 people, and "at least one" family left? That's comical. Maybe they had to use the restroom.
Look, we can sit and talk and debate this until eternity. Nothing is going to happen. Kamua is still going to call for my extermination, Sheila Jackson is still going to complain b/c hurricanes aren't named correctly, and the NAACP is going to call me a "Nazi."
I am just glad that I have my Constitutional protections. Well, that is until Feinstein, Boxer, and Clinton take them away...
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Tommie - you've gone from saying that there is no ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 20:20:00
Tommie - you've gone from saying that there is no racism (level playing field) to saying that there are "shouts" that are warranted. But if you want to address some of the allegations in this post, we can do that too. While I don't speak for you, I'd like to take a shot at deducing what you find so offensive. Tell me what you think.
1) The notion of race as a tournament, or a game - using the non-level playing field as an analogy. This obviously raises issues because it would appear that the message is that there is a winner and a loser in the end. No mention of cooperation, no mention of individuals on both sides who wish make that playing field level.
Fine. If you want to delve into the analogy that far, then I find the implications disturbing as well. But as much cooperation and coexistence as there is, I do agree with Prof. Smith's point about the playing field. It's evident to me that the country is becoming more conservative, or at least it has been for the past 8-10 years.
Because while the KKK may not being going around lynching people, the fact that people aren't thinking about racial relationships, that a lot of people aren't aware that there may be latent racial biases in hiring tendancies, education and the criminal justice system, makes the playing field uneven.
2) Affirmative action was the last straw, and whites actively campaigned to drive the country back towards conservatism.
While I don't especially like the phrase "battling back," maybe Prof. Smith has a point.
I think that there is a complacency amongst a lot of people, of all skin tones, in this country. It's a complacency that assumes race relations are ok, that says "the playing field is level." And when we assume that, since the playing field is not level, the momentum tilts the field back the way it came from. Think of a see-saw. Nearly impossible to balance once you've gotten it moving, but that's our goal isn't it?
The decreasing focus on racial discrimination (and that's Prof Smith's point about OJ), helped shift this country back towards the conservative side.
Remember, the 1960s and 70s were an era of progressive politics. When that focus became lost, the progressive part slowed down, and today, is not very prominent at all. And thus, we're conservative as a country, in the literal sense - we're conserving the status quo, maintaining the balance between haves and have-nots, which is in reality maintaining an inbalance.
Take away the "battle" part of Prof. Smith's analogy, and I for the most part agree that this is the present state of affairs. Current sentiment towards blacks, gays and women tend towards conservatism. Not really any doubt there.
3) You might think that the last point, the coincidence of Rosa Park's and Coretta King's passing, and the nominations of two conservative justices, is unfair.
But it really was coincidence, wasn't it? I don't really want to call it poetic, but the fact that in the State of the Union, Bush held a moment of silence, and then went on with his usual rhetoric, with no mention of correcting the divide of racial discrimination, tells me a lot.
It tells me that when people like King and Parks pass, their memory is not enough. Because people like Bush will bow their heads for a second and go back to business as usual. I fault the Democratic party to a large extent in this as well, because while memory is insufficient, using the memory to inspire action would be postively wonderful, in my opinion.
This country needs progressive thought, and progressive actions. Such thoughts and actions would push the playing field towards being level. Right now, the trend is the exact opposite.
Prof. Smith also makes the point (and he does say he doesn't want to argue about the playing field - I think I may have started that) that we should keep it "respectful."
Now what does that mean? Maybe we should shift the discussion
to that.
Posted By : Satchmo
Stephen - We can agree to disagree. But what's th...
Message posted on : 2006-02-02 - 20:29:00
Stephen - We can agree to disagree. But what's that about Clinton and Boxer and Feinstein wanting to deny you your constitutional freedoms?
Look - there are racists in this country, and there are black racists and white racists. I agree. There's a lot of hate in this country.
But please don't say that whites are discriminated against more than blacks. That's simply not true.
And believe me, you're more likely to be killed by a black-sounding Hurricane than by an African American trying to start some kind of race war.
I'd like to think that the majority of people in this country are more or less reasonable. Or at least, the majority of people in this country have the ability to reason.
So why do we let the haters hate, and agree that they're there. In the meantime, try to understand that the playing field isn't even, that some individuals in this country have been exposed to a lot more hate and adversity than you could experience in several lifetimes. Does it mean they're better than you? No. But we can at least acknowledge that there's a problem.
Posted By : Satchmo
Anonymous,
I completely agree that players ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 10:27:00
Anonymous,
I completely agree that players need agents and that they serve a valuable role in contract negotiations. My proposal is a way to alleviate all of the bad things associated with the business.
Regarding fee regulations, MLBPA has no cap on fees; NFLPA caps it at 3%; NHLPA has no cap; and in basketball it's 4%. In my opinion, that's still too high.
As far as conflicts, you are correct, and that's why I suggest that the hired agents within the union be segregated from the representatives negotiating on behalf of the union during the collective bargaining process.
As far as continued regulation as the answer, there are too many regulations on the books already(union, state, federal, legal ethics rules, NCAA) that are not being enforced because enforcement is difficult and because the system works in such a way that there are disincentives for players, teams, and unions to enforce the rules.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Mr. Karcher,
I have a few questions concer...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 10:33:00
Mr. Karcher,
I have a few questions concerning your proposal. First, would I be wrong in assuming that the intent of your proposal is actually one of regulating integrity? If so, I do agree that this is a serious concern that needs to be promptly dealt with. As I understand it, unethical behavior abounds in sports agency because the competition is so incredibly fierce; a measure to retrict it should be welcomed by team owners.
I would also appreciate it if you could expound a bit on the actual dynamics of the player recruiting process. I have heard that 90% of the NFL players are represented by 10% of the registered agents (or something similarly skewed)so I would like to know what marketing advantage an NFLPA employee-agent would have over a conventional privat practice agent/agency?
I am a student at Missouri Baptist University, and am actively pursuing a career in agency. I have a vested interest in your article and would love to hear your responses.
Posted By : Anonymous
Should they have pulled her out at 25, 50, 75 or 1...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 11:33:00
Should they have pulled her out at 25, 50, 75 or 100? Perhaps the writer should propose a rule that high school athletes are not allowed to score more than 40 points? Or, starters are not allowed to play while there is a twenty point lead? Or, must we call this particular writer and ask him when the coach is allowed to let the player continue?
How bad a sportswoman is Cheryl Miller, who held the record before Epiphanny, or Linda Page or Reggie Isaac or David Robinson?
Posted By : Andre Smith
I do think agents provided a valuable service to p...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 11:45:00
I do think agents provided a valuable service to players in player contracts. And in a way that is more valuable than some union employee would. The creative advances in player compensation in football, for example, have been initiated by the agents, not the union. And if these agents are "overpaid" the market should correct that. I don't see that it's any different than lawyers. And I don't hear anyone arguing that lawyers make to much money and so should be employed by the state.
I think the free market system works. There are thousands of agents, so there is plenty of pressure on agent fees. For example, the capped rate for NBA agents is 4%, but you won't find any agents making that high a commission. The free market has all but eliminated an agent fee on player contracts. I don;t see any reason agents should be treated any differently than any other segment of the economy.
Posted By : Anonymous
To the other Anonymous,
I appreciate your c...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 12:22:00
To the other Anonymous,
I appreciate your comments. You raise the point about lawyers fees. Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not suggesting change because agents make too much money. The union reps., the players and the teams are all complaining about all of the problems with the current system, including, among other things, client stealing. I'm not hearing these same things from lawyers in the legal services business.
Lawyers for the most part are paid on an hourly rate or fixed fee basis, with the exception of personal injury lawyers. Corporate lawyers don't hound corporate executives the way agents do with the players, because that would severely impact their reputation. In the agent business, it has no impact on their reputations whatsoever. As far as P.I. lawyers paid on a contingency fee basis, there are differences between that relationship and the player-agent relationship: 1. The plaintiff doesn't have the ability to pay, whereas the professional athlete does; 2. The P.I. lawyer assumes all of the costs of litigation (filings, depositions, experts, etc.) and also takes on the risk that he will recover no fee if the plaintiff recovers nothing; whereas the agent incurs no risk --once the agent retains the client, the only question is how many millions is the player going to sign for.
As far as the free market working here, please see my earlier comment about why the market doesn't work.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
No rule is warranted, and it should not be needed....
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 12:33:00
No rule is warranted, and it should not be needed. Courtesy and sportsmanship dictate that when a game is well out of hand, coaches should instruct their players to not run up the score. There is no way to score 113 points without trying to run up the score.
As for your other examples, I think that anytime a player continues to humiliate a clearly inferior opponent for the sake of achieving an arbitrary personal milestone, then that is an act of poor sportsmanship. If the game is still somewhat in doubt, then there is no problem. Otherwise I find it to be in bad taste.
Posted By : Greg Skidmore
Drug testing can identify a alcohol addiction that...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 12:41:00
Drug testing can identify a alcohol addiction that is a devastating disease that affects millions of individuals and families. Find the right follice drug test program for yourself or a loved. It will be the first day of the rest of their or your life.
You can get more assistance at http://www.adrugtest.com .
Posted By : Follicle Drug Test
I do not think I can take it anymore. I've got to ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 12:42:00
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Posted By : Larry
A rule is warranted and it is needed, for the reas...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 14:48:00
A rule is warranted and it is needed, for the reason that no one can answer the questions I just asked.
Of course you are right that there is some standard. But I have a little more difficulty reconciling that norm with the reality that that game, like many others, wasn't in doubt from the start. What to do then?
I remember watching Dawn Staley in high school. Even in the Philadelphia Public League, where women's ball flourished, especially in the 80s, all of her games were certified blowouts before she and Dobbins Tech stepped on the floor. Does the coach take her out when it's 25-2? Should Staley, Swoopes, Cheryl Miller be taken out of the first half of every high school game they play?
Also, as long as the player is in the game, isn't there also a norm that suggests they play to the best of their abilities?
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Delete "warranted"
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 14:51:00
Delete "warranted"
Posted By : SmittyBanton
The decision to pull her shouldn't have anything t...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 14:51:00
The decision to pull her shouldn't have anything to do with how many points she scored. It has to do with how many points her team is leading by in the game. Why do teams and players have to humiliate and annihilate the opponent? Isn't winning enough? Where is the respect for the opponent and the game?This is why youth leagues are forced to institute the mercy rule.It is a shame that too many coaches, players and fans don't understand sportsmanship and respect. Coach Hurley of St. Anthony's apparently does.
Posted By : RJZ
Lawyers don't solicit clients? What about ambulan...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 15:13:00
Lawyers don't solicit clients? What about ambulance chasers? Lawyers who send solicitations to family members days after a plane crash? You think lawyers aren't in West Virginia right now trying to sign up clients for a law suit against the coal mines?
And it's not just personal injury lawyers who get paid on a contingent fee basis. Securities lawyers, class action lawyers, some intellectual property lawyers, collection lawyers, etc. And oftentimes, the plaintiff does have the ability to pay. There are even corporations who engage lawyers on a contingent fee basis.
Most agents (with significant client lists) are legitmate business people, who look out for the best interest of their clients. Are there bad apples in the industry? Of course, just like there are unethical lawyers. But the answer isn't to do away with agents entirely. The answer is better, more uniform regulation. Regulation is patchwork right now, but so was securities regulation at one time. The answer is to fix the regulatory framework, not junk it entirely.
Althletes are better paid and have better working conditions than ever before. A large part of the progress is the result of the work of agents.
Anyway, it's impractical to think you can dictate to athletes from whom they seek career advice. Even if you had some union agent construct, what would prevent an athlete from having his non-union marketing agent advise him? And the mere fact that the system would allow marketing agents, means the recruiting issues would still be out there. After all, it's on the marketing side that agent makes most of his/her money.
Anyway, good topic. Looking forward to the article.
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous,
Thanks for the comment. All of ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 15:53:00
Anonymous,
Thanks for the comment. All of the legal contingency work you mentioned does not involve transactional work (which is what agents do) and involves a risk of not recovering a judgment on behalf of the plaintiff (which is not the situation with agents).
As far as ambulance chasers, the legal ethics rules prohibit solicitation, and they can be disciplined for violating those rules. And more to the point, if personal injury plaintiffs were represented by a union, you would most definitely see a different attorney-client arrangement. Indeed, some states, such as Florida, are actually reducing the percentage fee that P.I. attorneys can charge.
Give the unions ample credit for much of the player benefits and compensation over the years.
And my proposal is not dictating anything to the players -- it's an option for players to retain people employed by the union who are privy to all of the relevant data, contracts and information necessary for sufficient representation.
Regarding marketing, I agree with you that there will still be marketing agents. But marketing is not much of a concern to the majority of professional athletes that don't have those opportunities.
What's your proposal to fixing the agent regulatory framework that already exists "belt and suspenders"?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
What if her team had lost the game despite her sco...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 15:55:00
What if her team had lost the game despite her scoring effort? Would your uber-rule contain a sliding scale or formula balancing point margin between the opposing teams with the number of points scored by Hero, so that as long as Hero's team was only ahead by X points or less (or trailing), she could stay in the game? Or, even if in a losing effort, should such one-dimensional scoring be "illegal"?
Thanks Greg and RJZ for your sensible comments.
Posted By : Scott Townsend
I don't know why you couldn't have federal regulat...
Message posted on : 2006-02-03 - 16:06:00
I don't know why you couldn't have federal regulations governing athlete recruiting that would preempt state regs. Much like NSMIA regs in the securities field.
As for transaction-based contingency compensation schemes, perhaps the better analogy in this area would be investment bankers. Also in a fiduciary relationship to their clients (who could afford to pay hourly), and also work on a contingency basis. The risk agents and investment bankers run is not getting any compensation for their work if they don't close the deal.
And as for marketing opportunities, most professional athletes do have these opportunities (even if they are just appearances, autograph signings, etc.) and all of them think they do or should or will. And if they don't, they think it's because they don;t have a good enough agent!
Posted By : Anonymous
Here are some of the mercy rules in Colorado high ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-04 - 05:42:00
Here are some of the mercy rules in Colorado high school sports (I don't have a problem being corrected if I'm wrong, or add on if I left one out):
FOOTBALL (6- or 8-man): One team up 45 points at or after halftime ends the game.
BASEBALL and SOFTBALL: 10-run rule ends games after 4th inning or later.
SOCCER: Team up by seven goals loses a player each time margin increases (wonder if that means if a team is down to six players, they forfeit even with an 11-0 lead?).
WRESTLING: Technical fall ends match after one wrestler gains 15+-point lead (this seems to be at all levels, including Olympic?).
No mercy rule in dual matches--teams can and sometimes do end up with 40-plus point margins over another.
SWIMMING, TRACK, GYMNASTICS, BASKETBALL, LACROSSE, FIELD HOCKEY--no mercy rule I am aware of.
-------------------------------------
Two other quick thoughts: The opponents on Cheryl Miller's 100-point night---actually in one HALF---quit (forfeited) and did not play the second half.
David Robinson put 71 up on the Clippers in the last game of the season; he, however, was going for the scoring title for the season (he lost to, I think, Karl Malone that year).
David Thompson put 73 up on Detroit back in the late 1970's to try and win the title on the last day; he lost when George Gervin of the Spurs put up 63 later the same day.
Should these players have been pulled at a certain point because their teams' playoff status would not be affected, or did the other team understand what was going on and do their best to stop that particular player, as they should be doing?
Final point: Coaches should quit whining about "sportsmanship" when the other team "runs up" the score; maybe he/she should look at their team's actions after a blocked shot, dunk, sack, etc. and see how "sportsmanlike" their OWN players are. There are going to be days and teams where you just get clobbered, and days when you do the clobbering.
Mercy rules are another example of "not wanting to offend or hurt someone's feelings" that we see all too often in today's society.
Posted By : Melvin H.
What about this for a federal law to fix the "jock...
Message posted on : 2006-02-04 - 06:01:00
What about this for a federal law to fix the "jock tax": The only state or territory which can collect tax on pro athletes' salaries, benefits, etc., is the one where the athlete plays his or her home games. That solves the problem of a neutral state (Michigan in this case) trying to extract taxes from two teams from out of state (PA and WA) or, say, CA from getting taxes from a team in, say CO. It would also solve the
potential problem of filing and paying taxes in a dozen or more states every year.
(I realize this may have problems--constitutional, what about teams who play home games outside the U.S., what about states w/no income tax [WA in the example above], or multiple sites [i.e. New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets, New Orleans/San Antonio Saints, etc.]. Suggestions welcome!)
Posted By : Melvin H.
This came up in another context when in an NIAA so...
Message posted on : 2006-02-04 - 10:26:00
This came up in another context when in an NIAA soccer game, a team won a game 26-0. That scoreline would be fine if it was 24-0, because the last two goals were scored in the final minute. That is the definition of running it up, when you refuse to just knock it around for 60 seconds with a 24-0 lead.
Unless this girl was jacking up shots in the final posession, it's just as much a slap in the face to take her out. Benching your stars and starters early sends the message that your scrubs are better than their team, and you refuse to waste your best effort and talent on the other team. Coaches are probably mad about sportsmanship after the game no matter what the other team did, if they got pasted.
Posted By : Taco John
I completely agree with your argument that agents ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-04 - 17:31:00
I completely agree with your argument that agents are really being paid for 'solicitation' more so than actual knowledge and that they are being significantly overpaid for their legitimate legal work.
However, I did want to raise the following points for discussion:
1. One could argue that the NFLPA has something very similar to this already in place. Although it is not well known, and current agents may not want to admit to using it, the NFLPA offers free advice, review, and statistical comparison assistance to all registered NFLPA agents. Any registered agent not only can, but is encouraged by the NFLPA to, include the union in the process to ensure that the agent is negotiating 'fair market value.' (The Union obviously has their own reasons for wanting to do this--they don't want one unsophisticated agent signing a below market value deal that in turn hurts others players negotiation stances, etc.) Is this really that different than what you are proposing? (Or at least similar enough that it should be raised in your post?)
2. Thank you for mentioning the English Professional Footballers Association. I had not known they had this system and found it very interesting. I was able to find their website, but very little information on the agency. (http://www.givemefootball.com/pfasection/PMA.html) Do you happen to have any additional information and/or articles on their program?
3. As it relates to NFL, NBA, and NHL--the major professional leagues that have some form of a salary cap, wouldn't you find that the English Footballers Association model has an inherent conflict of interest? Unlike in Europe (or MLB), where a team is not limited to a certain total output figure and thus the negotiation does not involve this obstacle, whouldn't the NFLPA run into problems if they were "separately" negotiating on behalf of two players on the same team? (e.g. the "NFLPA agency" may negotiate the same total amount for the two players, but one of those players may not make as much as he would have if the two players were truly negotiated by separate parties. Or put another way, if a team can only sign their final two players to $X dollars, and the "NFL agency" is representing both players, the team does not care how much of $X they allocate between the two players, and the "NFL Agency" will receive the same total commission from the two players regardless of the salary allocation between them--the only difference is that player 1 may get less than player 2 under this conflict of interest whereas an independent agenct may have negotiated a higher salary for player 1 at the expense of player 2 whom the agent does not have any fiduciary interest.)
I welcome your comments and look forward to reading your article.
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Message posted on : 2006-02-04 - 22:43:00
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Posted By : daily affirmations
To "Fire Drew Rosenhaus":
Thanks for your c...
Message posted on : 2006-02-05 - 09:07:00
To "Fire Drew Rosenhaus":
Thanks for your comments, which are all great points. First, I just want to say that I don't have it out for agents (in fact I have good relationships with a few). As a former minor league player, the focus of my writing is, and has been, on the best interests of the players (who I believe are being taken advantage of in multiple ways by the current system).
1. As you mentioned, the NFLPA assists agents by providing them with important data and contract information. While this may be an attempt to ensure agent competency, it doesn't address the solicitation and excessive fees issues. And I actually think this point you raise supports my proposal that the unions, who are privy to all of the pertinent data and information necessary to effectively negotiate player contracts, are the more appropriate and cost-effective parties to handle the representation.
2. That's a good cite you mention. Also check out: http://www.football-research.org/papers/pfa-paper.htm
3. Regarding the conflict of interest issue you raised, I address this in my article. First, you already have agents in the business that represent many of the premier players on the same team or in the same position (i.e. Leigh Steinberg represents many great quarterbacks, and Scott Boras arguably has a monopoly in baseball). Secondly, it's actually getting worse as the "big four" (Octagon, IMG, Assante and SFX) keep consolidating the industry even more, which raises additional conflict of interest issues in that Octagon also represents management (i.e. coaches), and SFX, through its parent company (Clear Channel), has affiliated ownership interests in various professional sports teams. With my proposal, the agents would not be paid on a commission basis. I don't buy the argument that an agent paid on a fixed fee basis has less of an incentive to get his client the best deal possible. Also, the union would be able to ensure that the players are divided among its staff of agents so that conflicts can be eliminated, if not substantially reduced (similar to the way that a law firm alleviates internal conflicts by setting up "chinese walls").
Posted By : Rick Karcher
From what i heard maybe the NBA wants to be protec...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 13:28:00
From what i heard maybe the NBA wants to be protected from making these horrible investments. That is almost 30 million dollars down the drain for some NBA owner or owners. A lot of these high school talen prove to be a waste of money and even if they become good, most do it after they become a free agent or for another team that drafted them, ala Jermaine Oneal, McGrady. Even if they do it for that team, most players are not good untill their first rookie contract expires. That is why the NBA is protecting the owners.
Posted By : tommie
This is exactly the kind of argument that supports...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 14:02:00
This is exactly the kind of argument that supports your argument at Duke. Which I was also able to watch the archives, you guys did a great job.
Posted By : ryguy
Yeah, guys like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Lebron...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 14:16:00
Yeah, guys like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Amare Stoudamire, Jermaine O'Neal, Rashard Lewis, Dwight Howard, Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Sebastain Telfair have really been awful investments.
Too bad the NBA couldn't create a rule that protects itself from drafting guys like Ed O'Bannon, Rafel Arraujo, Mateen Cleaves, Troy Bell, Melvin Ely, Marcus Fizer, Reece Gaines, Marcus Banks, Kirk Haston, Brandon Armstrong, Jeryl Sassor, Curtis Borochardt, Marcus Haislip, Dahnty Jones . . . the list of college junior and senior busts could go on for a long time.
It's not about age. It's about others ability to measure to talent.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Thanks ryguy, I appreciate that (my post right abo...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 14:17:00
Thanks ryguy, I appreciate that (my post right above is a reply to Tommie).
Posted By : Michael McCann
In response to rjz, I think in most cases you shou...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 14:52:00
In response to rjz, I think in most cases you shouldn't make choices based strictly on financial considerations, but in the case of pro basketball, the payoff is so tremendous that you would be foolish to pass that chance up. It's one thing if you want to be a kindergarten teacher but you become a lawyer so you can make a few million dollars. Being a lawyer is hard, tedious work.
It's different in the case of pro basketball. Like Mr. McCann said, it all depends on others' ability to evaluate you. Whether you can play or not, if someone else thinks you can, you're looking at free money if you're qany one of the college busts that McCann mentions. As a Milwaukeean, I know first hand about guys like Marcus Haislip: we drafted him. Somebody said along the line, "This guy has a 45 inch vert, there has to be something there!" There are plenty of guys in the NBA who you can tell are not particularly fond of basketball, i.e. Vince Carter. He went to his college graduation on the day of a big game just because that was important to him. As in Bender's case, the money he has made from the league will allow him to pursue all of his other interests.
Just because Bender and so many others flopped doesn't mean they robbed anyone, they just took advantage of a surreal world where pay is based on potential, not results. When you're in that world, you would be foolish not to think only about financial considerations, because everyone else is, and you might blow your chance.
Posted By : Sam
The reason why they publicly came out and pronounc...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 19:04:00
The reason why they publicly came out and pronounced it wrong is because it wasn't a matter of disagreeing with the referee's judgement. It was a clear misapplication of the rules, applying a criteria that did not apply in that situation.
If I declared a catch was good because the player got one foot in bounds, declaring me in error because the rule states "two feet" would not be second-guessing my judgement, it would be correcting a clear error on the rules of the game.
Judgement and the content of the actual rules are very different animals.
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Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 19:26:00
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Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 19:28:00
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Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 19:33:00
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Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 19:36:00
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Posted By : Rick J
tommie -- It's not like the NBA handed Bender $29 ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 20:10:00
tommie -- It's not like the NBA handed Bender $29 million the day he walked out of high school. The rookie contracts in the NBA are limited in dollar amounts. Bender got a lot of money beyond the rookie contract because he was a good player.
Posted By : SBG
Prof McCann,
Those players who are junior and ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-06 - 20:20:00
Prof McCann,
Those players who are junior and senior busts do not waste one teams time or money only to be a superstar for another team. I agree they should have a choice, however Stern was pressured by owners to do this (as he had other reasons too). Maybe it gives them more time to discover health issues, as these players do not handle a full basketball load until college, which is still not even close to the NBA 82 game season.
If you look at the players you named, How many were good in there first three years? Lebron James. It is still too early to tell with Dwight Howard. McGrady switched teams as did Jermaine Oneal (bad investments for Portland and Toronto). JR Smith..9 points , no other stats worht noting...not good. Josh Smith...less than 9 points and 6 rebounds...not good, Sebastian telfair...point guard with 9 points and under 4 assists a game...not good, Al Jefferson...8 points 5 rebounds...not good. Now these players may be good one day, but the odds are it wont be for the teams they are on, oh yeah are the teams they are on winning? Any of them? NO.
Maurcie Clarrett ruined his career by trying to break rules, because he thinks he is bigger than the law. People first off need to learn to respect rules, then they are free to make whatever choice they like, if it abides by the rules.
But then again Prof McCann, thats why the NFL blows away the NBA in terms of EVERYTHING substantial!!!!! That is why the NFL has huge success and is the most popular sport in this country. Ever since highschool players started entering the draft on a substantial basis the league has had a bad image matched with poor ratings. Coincidence? No.
Posted By : Tommie
I think the issue is not with the tactics and comm...
Message posted on : 2006-02-07 - 02:37:00
I think the issue is not with the tactics and commission, the issue is supply and demand. There is only a small amount of athletes but there is a much bigger pie to be appropriatly distributed to athletes. I believe all athletes today should have some type of representation and should be able to earn income off of their individual skills whether they are in high school and getting a free pizza or professional player getting a free pizzeria. We should be opening up the world of representation so no athlete gets taken advantage of without their own opportunity to better their financial situation.
Posted By : Anonymous
Satchmo,
I think it is pretty obvious about ho...
Message posted on : 2006-02-07 - 09:57:00
Satchmo,
I think it is pretty obvious about how the NFL blows away the NBA in every substantial aspect. Just look at the playoffs. I understand the NBA plays best of 7 series, however, that is not the problem, the excitement and marketing and overall appeal of the sport makes it more successful.
The NBA has the right to not let people of a certain age play, whether right or wrong, it is their right.
If a player out of college does bad right away (during his first contract), he is not going to get rewarded with a 25 or 30 million dollar contract. If a highschool player does, he will. Jonathan Bender has never amounted to anything in the NBA, neither has Kwame Brown, however they recieved those millions the second time around based on possible potential and their age.
Posted By : tommie
In case you want to add Michael Jordan's opinion:<...
Message posted on : 2006-02-08 - 13:46:00
In case you want to add Michael Jordan's opinion:
Jordan would like to see the NBA tinker with its new rule on when players can be drafted. Now, they have to wait one year after high school - he wants it to be two, so they get past their teens.
"I think from an educational and maturity standpoint it should have been at least 20," he said. "That way they get at least two years of college. Colleges get the chance to teach and educate them about the game of basketball and life and it trickles down."
"There's no way that an 18-year-old kid is going to be mature enough to handle some of the business things that they have to deal with on a professional level," he said. "Sure you have your obvious examples of a LeBron (James) and Carmelo (Anthony). But for every one of those, you can think of four or five who missed the boat and made the wrong decision and now they can't find their way," he said.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5314494
Posted By : Jason
I just cannot believe that a professional sports l...
Message posted on : 2006-02-08 - 14:02:00
I just cannot believe that a professional sports league like the NFL that is a billion dollar industry settles for part-time referees. After the Super Bowl debacle for Seattle and the zebras I am convinced that their ownership alone will push for "full-time" referees. Good training program and reward incentives will push the level of officiating to where it belongs. NFL needs to GET WITH IT.
Posted By : Anonymous
Thanks Jason (and thanks to Tommie for e-mailing m...
Message posted on : 2006-02-08 - 14:15:00
Thanks Jason (and thanks to Tommie for e-mailing me the same story).
Posted By : Michael McCann
on Jordan - let's not let 18 year olds play, said ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-08 - 15:37:00
on Jordan - let's not let 18 year olds play, said the guy who had a well publicized gambling addiction and cheated on his wife. I bought all the Jordan hype along with everyone else, but lets face it, he's not without sin, despite being one of the best marketed individuals in the history of mankind.
And also, I wonder how much of that statement comes from his selection of Kwame Brown? Hmm...
Posted By : Satchmo
what is the moral dress code, and why is hip hop g...
Message posted on : 2006-02-10 - 11:39:00
what is the moral dress code, and why is hip hop gear "poor"? self-hatred is an ugly thing.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Robin,
You can wear jeans at your job if yo...
Message posted on : 2006-02-10 - 11:49:00
Robin,
You can wear jeans at your job if you are important enough.
Others,
Also, it is big difference between a particular team having a dress code, and an industry wide dress code to be followed by teams that don't even want it.
Beside a racial issue, it is another antitrust violation (the embodiment of our capitalist, meritocratic system) that is shielded by the ill-interpreted "non-statutory labor exemption to antitrust". Why are so many people in favor of limiting the rights of others?
Why are people so in favor of anti-meritocratic, anti-capitalist policies as they relate to black athletes (industry wide dress code, salary cap, high school ban, limited free agency)? Another writer on this blog said that it is the responsibility of black leadership to provide oppurtunities to blacks. Fighting these rules does just that. Cultural supremacy begets economic supremacy. Hiphop designers, many of them black, were making money of selling clothes to athletes and getting advertising value to boot. Those dollars are not transferred to Armani and the other. Where Karl Kani had the cultural advantage, the league shifted it by mandate to Armani. I am sorry that Mr. McDaniel may not have contemplated this.
Andre Smith
Posted By : SmittyBanton
"These dollars are now transferred to Armani and o...
Message posted on : 2006-02-10 - 11:50:00
"These dollars are now transferred to Armani and others" (typing too fast)
Posted By : SmittyBanton
I just finsihed reading Michael Eric Dyson's "Is B...
Message posted on : 2006-02-10 - 12:12:00
I just finsihed reading Michael Eric Dyson's "Is Bill Cosby Right?" (I know, I'm a little late in reading it), and it had several pertinent points on this topic (regarding image, dress, individuality and stereotypes).
I thoroughly recommend the book to anyone who hasn't read it already.
Posted By : Satchmo
I almost made the counter-argument about there bei...
Message posted on : 2006-02-10 - 12:48:00
I almost made the counter-argument about there being a difference between a team code and a league code, but I was pressing my luck by posting in class as it was!
I will concede that point, because its a good one.
I know absolutely nothing about the Steve Nash situation, so I'll agree that its unfair, and the rule should be the rule for everyone, not just for some. If its suit and ties, then its suit and ties. Not sweaters and jeans and button down shirts for some.
I think the charge of self hatred is unfair, though. Just my opinion.
All of that aside, why is it that an employee should be able to dictate to an employer what they will or will not wear at work? If women can get fired at Harrah's casino for not wearing makeup (Jespersen v Harrah's which is going to be reheard, if I understand correctly) then how can a league not hand down a dress code?
Posted By : robin
Smittybanton stated that I have some self hatred. ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 00:19:00
Smittybanton stated that I have some self hatred. If educating over 200 African American kids in my youth basketball program is demonstrating self-hatred then that I am. My question to you is what have you done lately......for the inner city youth in which you couldn' write off on your taxes. Yes there are many out there just like you who want to pretend you are for the cause......when you don't even know what the cause is. Therefore, Mr. Hip Hop wanna be......keep pretending and any time you want to come visit my group of kids and debate with me in front of them......please bring it on. That is if you can find your "Can't touch this t-shirt"
Posted By : Lindsey
Smittybannon
You have taken the defensive f...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 00:28:00
Smittybannon
You have taken the defensive for the black athlete, and it is only a front to show the "homeboys"...."Hey dude I may be a part of corporate American, but I'm down".
You want to take a stand, how about coming into the mean streets of the ATL, in your flashy vehicle, leave your keys in it for 5 minutes and go inside a convenience store.....I hope you bought a bus ticket to get you home. I think you are closer to being a "Sell Out" than I am to self hatred. I don't accept apologies from "sell outs"
Posted By : Lindsey
Andre,
"you can wear jeans to your job if you ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 01:22:00
Andre,
"you can wear jeans to your job if you are important enough"
that is one horrible statement, when a great trial attorney practices for a big corp, he is allwed to wear jeans? NO.
It is called an image, and a look the NBA needs to improve. It is also about marketing. They need to make money, and the "hip hop image" is not drawing enough money or making the league successful. that is what it boils down to.
It is called being professional and respectful
being classy. When you represent your company at functions you are too represent them with respect and respect the image THEY WANT YOU TO PORTRAY!
If you do no like the rules of the job, dont take it, go flip burgers and wear that bling and baggy sweats.
The better companies in this world are associated with a better image of being classy, and that is what the NBA is shooting for.
People who cry racism about this are just plain rude to the situation and rules of the employer, the NBA.
Posted By : tommie
I certainly didn't mean to escalate the tone of th...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 09:30:00
I certainly didn't mean to escalate the tone of this conversation! If my comments did that, it was certainly not what I intended.
I understood what he meant by the "if you're important enough" comment because, in a way, he's right. Not in the general sense of if you're a trial attorney you're expected to dress like a professional (which is ALSO correct) but in the sense of if your name is on the letterhead, you can wear whatever you want, but the REST of the minions had better dress according to the dress code. That is true. So, if you're important enough, you can wear jeans.
And, maybe for some the two can't be separated, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the underlying reasons for this policy is completely color/culturally netural. What I'm saying is this is an image battle where even if the players lose, the players win. So they have to dress a certain way while they are on the job (even if they are on the bench.) They aren't losing face in the community, where even people who don't wear a suit and tie to work everyday understand that there is a slididng scale between the amount of money you make and how you are expected to dress for work. And, they are projecting a more professional appearance for the NBA, in turn, making them more money. (using some crazy trickle down method....)
As a side note, even my dad (who will be 74 next week) complained about the way the players dressed and thinks they look much better on the sidelines now. He also complained when the dress code became a rule because he thought it was racist as well. Not that they had to wear suits, but that they were TOLD to wear suits.
And as I haven't seen the exact statement of the dress code, I'll let ya'll debate that Steve Nash thing.
Posted By : robin
So who in the NBA is so important that they can we...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 11:23:00
So who in the NBA is so important that they can wear jeans? If anyone, David Stern. However, it is his league and he has the the right to set the image. If he wants to wear jeans and tell everyone else to, so be it. If he wants to wear a suit and tell everyone else to, so be it.
Also, these players represent the teams and the NBA when they are on the court, the bench, at interviews, and at the hotels. There is also an on court dress code that is very strict, such as no baggy shorts. However Commissioner Stern has this right to enforce.
Posted By : tommie
I love debate Brandon, but please be specific. Yo...
Message posted on : 2006-02-11 - 19:16:00
I love debate Brandon, but please be specific. Your point depends upon how you define the word "autonomy," as well as how you perceive I define that word in my law review article. If you read the article (and I presume you have), then you would know that "autonomy" is never defined to include unlawful behavior. Instead, it is defined to include economic liberty (e.g., being able to jump to the NBA from high school), personal autonomy (e.g., being able to chose your clothing), and empowerment of medical decision-making (e.g., being able to refuse a team-required DNA test). Along those lines, there's a pretty big difference between whether you can wear a gold chain and whether you can order a friend to commit criminal assault. Now, if you can posit a empirical correlation between expansion of player autonomy as I define it in my article and worsened NBA player behavior, then you would have a very good point. And that sounds like a good paper topic for someone's 2L or 3L year in law school!
Posted By : Michael McCann
Wow, I never thought a spit could cost you up to f...
Message posted on : 2006-02-12 - 01:03:00
Wow, I never thought a spit could cost you up to five years...
Posted By : Ryguy
I also want to post this as a story.. but I think ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-12 - 01:17:00
I also want to post this as a story.. but I think it's good for comments..
Since the winter games just started, there has been a problem. In Torino, there has not been any natural snow since January 30th. So the organizers have been busy manufacturing snow. Is it a problem that these Olympics, one of few with a majority of 'man-made' snow, are creating 'artifical' champions? I saw many icy slopes (and looking at the womens moguls finals and downhill practice seemed a lot more icy) and does that have an effect on any of these skiiers. I saw some favorites in women's moguls not make the qualifying by slipping in a few places, would it be indirect to blame it in part on some of that icy snow? Considering it's way off topic (there's a short/linked article in the Washington Post from Wed and probably something in a sunday paper) I'll connect the two by asking how long an Italian would get if they spit or urinated in someone's coffee?
By the way: enjoy these Olympic games!
Posted By : Ryguy
Yeah, Roberto Alomar got 5 games for spitti...
Message posted on : 2006-02-12 - 01:20:00
Yeah, Roberto Alomar got 5 games for spitting at John Hirschbeck, and these two spitting schmos may get 5 years in prison--something just doesn't quite seem right (then again, as Stephen alludes above, what they did is incredibly disgusting and detracts from the already scant confidence we had in the fast food industry--they clearly deserve some sanction).
Posted By : Michael McCann
I have a cop friend that I go out to eat with abou...
Message posted on : 2006-02-12 - 13:37:00
I have a cop friend that I go out to eat with about once every week or so... we never go to a place where they make the food in the back, it's always where they prepare it in front of you.
The reason being, is apparently some punks spit in his food when they found out he was a cop! He was highly dissatisfied.
You never know what kind of communicable diseases people have. Hell, I don't want to share a drink with anyone, I sure don't want someone's saliva all over (or in) my food.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
DRESS CODE:
If a TEAM wishes to institute a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-13 - 10:58:00
DRESS CODE:
If a TEAM wishes to institute a dress code for its employees (players) this would be within their right.
But for a LEAGUE to do so is inappropriate at least and possible an attempt to demonstrate "power and control" over EMPLOYEES of other entities.
Posted By : ADVOCATE
McCann,
Kenyon would have had no shot at the NB...
Message posted on : 2006-02-13 - 15:16:00
McCann,
Kenyon would have had no shot at the NBA without his work at Cincinnati, and certainly no chance of being a #1 overall draft choice.
From what I've read and heard about Kenyon's teen years and early college experience, basketball ensured his well being, or may have even saved his life.
What is alleged about him in your linked reports is, no doubt, a concern and hopefully an investigation gets to the bottom of it.
If no penalty occurs, at least make sure that "representatives" cant approach fans in the stands.
For the record though, I am very "anti-heckling", but know that it is permitted thru certain rights. Couldnt that fan have found a better way to express himself - especially near kids?
But as for the last sentence ("Gotta love that college degree for premier basketball players. They really are so much better off, aren't they?"), I'll respectfully disagree in Martin's case. The rest of the article is quite valid.
Near daily reader - Keep up the good work!
Mike
Posted By : Anonymous
This is an interesting problem to adress. It is my...
Message posted on : 2006-02-13 - 20:03:00
This is an interesting problem to adress. It is my opinion that both arguments are meritorious, but the final resolution should be bargained over between the players union and the NBA administration.
My particular concern is for the WNBA. Is it fair to assume that an NBA dress code will effect the WNBA such that they will require players to dress in a more feminine manner when making appearances? This could be a much more hotly conested debate because it implications would include not only race but also gender. I hope the NBA hasn't set a precedent that will cause future problems for the sports industry.
On the other hand, it could open up a whole new market for Nike or Adidas formal wear . . .
Posted By : Anonymous
Has this brought them any positive attention whats...
Message posted on : 2006-02-13 - 20:50:00
Has this brought them any positive attention whatsoever? It's mocked by the sports media, fans seem like they can't stand it. I realize it could be much different ten years down the road, but it seems like this has been a short-term hit downward.
Posted By : David
I think in this case the contract should be read l...
Message posted on : 2006-02-13 - 21:40:00
I think in this case the contract should be read literally. This is not a case of two people in small claims court. It's a case involving a city and a big corporate entity. Big budgets, lawyers for hire or on staff. Lawyers make their money agonizing over words--in this case, single words. And in this case, something along the lines of "only Anaheim" would have done the trick.
Posted By : Gregory W. Bowman
Sure, it's a tad embarrassing - but as you mention...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 00:43:00
Sure, it's a tad embarrassing - but as you mention, it's also a good time to gain attention since she's all over the front pages - a good marketing team will have ads giving Kwan all kinds of respect both for her illustrious career and for her good sportsmanship.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a "nice career Michelle" Wheaties box or something of the ilk in the coming month.
In short, there's nothing that you can't spin into something valuable.
Posted By : Satchmo
Hey Advocate,
The players get money from the NB...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 08:14:00
Hey Advocate,
The players get money from the NBA and the NBPA. How can you say the relation is not strong enough where there is no employer/employee relationship.
The NBA is loaded with incentives for players, from pensions to jersey sales to other things.
The teams make money off the NBA, therefore they work for the NBA as well. That is like saying if you work for a compay like Home Depot, you work for that store only and not the corporate headquarters. Corporate headquarters at companies like that sets rules for their employees, which ALL TEAMS must follow.
Posted By : tommie
Kwan came out of the whole thing smelling like a r...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 08:54:00
Kwan came out of the whole thing smelling like a rose, for sure. The USFSA, on the other hand, should be pretty embarrassed. I think they let some marketing motivations trump fairness in this case -- they should have had the courage to keep Kwan off the team in the first place.
Posted By : Amateur
Here's a link to the NY Times' take on Mic...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 09:43:00
Here's a link to the NY Times' take on Michelle Kwan: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/business/media/14adco.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Posted By : Jennifer
Sophisticataed parties in an arms-length transacti...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 12:54:00
Sophisticataed parties in an arms-length transaction.
Plus, once you start drifting from the text to the spirit, you lose a definite anchor on which to base your interpretation. Words have meaning, best use the correct ones.
Posted By : Tflan
Extremely informative article. Nice job. As an a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 15:49:00
Extremely informative article. Nice job. As an aspiring sports attorney, you provide great insight into topics (particulary the compensation of college athletes) that will be debated heavily in the future.
A couple editing comments: (1) at page 6, footnote 26: "not applicable to the to the NCAA..." should be "not applicable to the NCAA..." and (2) at page 11, last paragraph: "First, according to the Clarett," should be "First, according to Clarett,"
Hope the comments are helpful!
Posted By : Michael C. Greene
The interesting aspect of the Mr. Bender's tale is...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 16:01:00
The interesting aspect of the Mr. Bender's tale is the effect of these types of investments on the quality of the product the league produces. There is an opportunity cost that follows a blown investment like this, especially in a league with a (somewhat soft) salary cap. While it might be worse for Mr. Bender had the league been aware of his limitations before its investment, it would have been better for the team, and thus (potentially) better for the league in general.
As for the NFL's popularity, this is an odd time to make that argument, after an atrocious Super Bowl and boring playoff season resulted in a non-meritorious champion.
Posted By : Anonymous
Extremely informative article. Nice job. As an a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 16:16:00
Extremely informative article. Nice job. As an aspiring sports attorney, you provide great insight into topics (particularly the compensation of college athletes) that will be debated heavily in the future.
A couple editing comments: (1) at page 6, footnote 26: "not applicable to the to the NCAA..." should be "not applicable to the NCAA..." and (2) at page 11, last paragraph: "First, according to the Clarett," should be "First, according to Clarett,"
Hope the comments are helpful!
Posted By : Michael C. Greene
While I'm sure that Visa and Coke would have loved...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 19:09:00
While I'm sure that Visa and Coke would have loved to center their campaign around the inspirational story of a long-awaited champion skater finally winning an Olympic gold medla, I believe that their campaign around Michelle Kwan was a calculated and managed risk that ultimately turned into a savvy marketing coup which ultimately ended to the sponsors' benefit.
By sponsoring an athlete that had huge name recognition, Visa and Coke were guaranteed a captive audience for their wares - people were going to pay attention because of her name rec alone. Visa and Coke could care less if Michelle won, they just wanted her to attract attention to their brand. Visa and Coke were betting on the fact that Michelle Kwan would create headlines in the U.S., which she certainly did. She delivered attention her sponsors and, as a bonus, in a (mostly) non-negative manner.
In fact, the only way Visa and Coke could have lost is if Michelle had actually competed and not medalled at all.
Posted By : Jason Chung
Forgive the following post for being slightly to r...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 19:13:00
Forgive the following post for being slightly to ranty.
Are we really to believe that calling the Anaheim Angels the "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" will bring in additional advertising dollars to the franchise?
The Angels argue that foreign advertisers may not know of Anaheim's proximity to the LA market but this excuse strikes me as a tad lame. Seriously, marketing people in Japan or Korea do not know or would not stumble onto the fact that Anaheim is in fact close to LA? Please.
Posted By : jason chung
Michael: thank you for your comments, and for thos...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 21:05:00
Michael: thank you for your comments, and for those two edits. We'll make those changes.
Posted By : Michael McCann
In fact, the only way Visa and Coke could have...
Message posted on : 2006-02-14 - 23:18:00
In fact, the only way Visa and Coke could have lost is if Michelle had actually competed and not medalled at all.
Which sounds like the seeds of a conspiracy theory; maybe Kwan never intended to compete ...
... but actually I don't even think that would have mattered to the sponsors. Win or lose, Kwan's shelf life as a brand was going to be pretty short after the Olympics. I am sure thay have been counting on the lead-up, not the follow-through.
Posted By : Amateur
I can predict the future. Nothing will happen to ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 09:03:00
I can predict the future. Nothing will happen to him. Most likely, he did in fact direct his "representative" to "shut him up." However, nothing will come of it. Sports players are inherently above the law (for the most part, unless they do something *really* egregious).
If someone calls you a "fat (expletive) white boy", how is that not brought down under hate speech? I'm sure if the tables were turned this would've been a bigger deal, yes?
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Great point. She did step aside quite gracefully,...
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 11:53:00
Great point. She did step aside quite gracefully, so maybe the gamble on here pays off for Coke nonetheless.
But it is risky. Remember the two decathletes that Reebok splurged on? Dan and someone? One didn't make it, the other faded fast.
Also, Bodie Miller hasn't done much for Nike.
Posted By : John M. Powers
Dan and Dave you mean?
It was kind of amusi...
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 13:24:00
Dan and Dave you mean?
It was kind of amusing how neither of them succeeded - Dave took Bronze.
Dan, however, did end up breaking the points record for the decathlon, but not at the Barcelona Olympics.
And it's kind of funny that no one remembers that besides Barcelona, he was a ridiculously good decathlete for a few years in the late 90's and won gold at Atlanta. But by then, I don't think Reebok was pushing him as hard.
I guess it shows that in advertising, timing is everything. Either that, or you shouldn't build advertising campaigns around decathletes.
Posted By : Satchmo
I think the problem lies solely with the olympics....
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 16:37:00
I think the problem lies solely with the olympics. It does not matter much about placing 1st or 3rd or somewhere else anymore. Years ago, yes it would have, however, in hardly anybody cares about the olympics. I do not know anyone that watches them. They are so boring, they have sports in them like snowboarding that belong in the x-games. There is not a substantial amount of interest in the games anymore, especially the winter.
And i heard there is no USA baseball team in the summer, how can that be, if true, that is a perfect example how this country needs to turn things around regarding the olympics.
Posted By : tommie
Well, the first reason that there's no US baseball...
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 16:57:00
Well, the first reason that there's no US baseball team is because there's no baseball in the Olympics anymore.
The IOC cancelled baseball and softball, which sucks because they're much more legitimate Olympic sports than say, half-pipe snowboarding.
The other thing is that I believe there is still interest in the games. The 92 games in Barcelona and the 96 games in Atlanta got pretty decent attention, I seem to remember.
One of the major issues I have with the games is the fact that NBC is showing taped footage of results most people already know, and letting the Olympics compete with prime time shows.
There was nothing wrong with showing the Olympics live - people interested are still going to watch.
If expectations are too high, there's no way the Olympics can live up to them. If you expect the 1980 Miracle on Ice every year, you'll be disappointed. But if you just expect some of the world's better athletes winning donuts and exchanging STDs back at the Olympic Village, then you'll get what you expect.
Posted By : Satchmo
Ok so there is no baseball at all. That makes no s...
Message posted on : 2006-02-15 - 20:15:00
Ok so there is no baseball at all. That makes no sense to me. World wide baseball competition starts in little league, and is great tradition. I know we have the world baeball classic, and it is too soon to tell its success, however i do not think a lot players are taking it serious and it would mean a lot more having it in the Olympics. It is a mochary for whoever is responsible for that.
I think the summer Olympics generate more interest than the winter, whether it is substantial or not I do not know. However i am not that old where i remember the 1980 olympics I was not even born, however it seems every Olympics there is a lot less interest.
Im sure people take more of an interest when it is in our country. But it just seems a lot duller now, whether its the presentation or the participants.
Posted By : tommie
The big thing in my mind was that TO's contract wa...
Message posted on : 2006-02-16 - 18:28:00
The big thing in my mind was that TO's contract was essentially a two-year contract with most of the money coming the first year. Yes, it was a longer contract than two years, but read the contract in NFL terms and you'll see what I mean.
The amount he was getting in the second year was not an amount due to a top-flight receiver, but he got more money, counting the initial bonus, in the first year than a top-flight receive was due.
Had he asked to renegotiate after the second year, I would not have had a problem but he specifically negotiated a contract where the first year of the contract was exorbitant with the expectation that he would be a value in the second year. Taking the first year's big paycheck and not fulfilling the second year seems unfair.
Posted By : Rob Howell
in the current state contracts are in, the players...
Message posted on : 2006-02-16 - 21:05:00
in the current state contracts are in, the players should do everything they can to get every dollar possible (or close to).
Posted By : tommie
Reebok, the sportswear brand recently acquired by ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-16 - 22:42:00
Reebok, the sportswear brand recently acquired by Adidas-Solomon AG, is causing something of a stir with its “shockers�. And by “shockers� we're not referring to a new innovative bio-mechanical and ergonomic footwear revelation - God forbid! No, we're referring to controversial advertising which includes depictions of Satan - indeed, God forbid!
Only last year Reebok ran a controversial television advertisement which depicted 50 Cent, the renowned uber-rapper and former drug dealer who lives in Connecticut, counting the number of bullets that have been shot at him. The famous rapper laughs and then looks into the camera as a voiceover asks, “Who do you plan to massacre next?� The advertisement was pulled in the United Kingdom. This type of tired and frankly puerile advertising is a long way from Reebok's roots which where planted in the soil of step-aerobics and Richard Simmons' anti-inertia classes. Indeed, the brand appears to be at the antithesis of its roots with its direct association with the negative side of hip-hop culture.
Given the negative connotations associated with Reebok's patently obvious attempt to woo the dark side, many knowledgeable commentators are asking could this negatively impact their new parent company, Adidas. Adidas still has a strong customer base in Middle America and mainstream Europe and surely the last thing they would want to do is alienate their main customer base by supporting advertisements glamorising Satan and murder.
The Congress of Racial Equality is outraged by Reebok's negative message about black men. “50 Cent was a drug dealer and proud of it,� says Niger Innis their spokesperson. “The fact that corporations are going to reward that kind of behavior is an outrage.� Let's hope Reebok and now, more importantly, Adidas take note of this valuable advice and they start to glamorise wholesome and decent role-models and ideologies.
Posted By : Anonymous
I want to cite this in this argument because I thi...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 00:37:00
I want to cite this in this argument because I think a lot of people will find it interesting:
___________________
(from Baseball Prospectus Chat with Scott Boras from August 9 2005 I put a link at the bottom as my web page and I'll put it here:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=141)
"Max (Montreal): What do you think of what Drew Rosenhaus is doing with Terrell Owens in the owner friwndly NFL?
Scott Boras: A few Owens questions... "Renegotiate" is not in my vocabulary. I advise players to consider all the variables, such as injury vs improvement, before they sign a contract.
I have had players call me about bad contracts they had signed and I always advise that the sanctity of the contract is important for the survival of any system based on performance. To change it when there is improvement is a double-edged sword that will inevitably lead to degrading the contract when the player malperforms.
Unless there is a provision allowing for changes based on performance, anyone who advocates change puts all his clients in jeopardy. It becomes subjective, degrading contracts just as often as improving them, and anarchy results.
Terrell Owens argues that the owners have the ability to void his contract at any time. While this seems unjust, this is in the NFL CBA. This is a huge issue that should be raised at the next collective bargaining session, but not in the context of an individual player. Owens knew this provision existed when he signed his contract."
_____________
I think this is important I mean some of us prejudice that Boras is such a shrewd agent but even he takes this stance again renegotiating contracts saying that it's not a good idea at all (run on sentence much there?).
I really agree with Boras' opinion here that the contract really has to be upheld, we see this a lot in baseball and football has a complicated cap system. In baseball, all contracts are upheld; people like Tony Gwynn collect money after they retire because they defer it. In football, owners ask their players to defer the money which seems unfair to the system. But in the NFL, the capless year in 2007 (barring any labor agreement, another issue for another day) would be very important for teams to clear dead money.
Posted By : Ryguy
What people and the media don't see are the roster...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 00:48:00
What people and the media don't see are the roster bonuses, incentives, etc. I know for a fact that TO's roster bonus was astronomical.
Yes, I know TO is a top-flight receiver but give me a break. Was TO underpaid? Hardly. In Article XIV Section 8 of the CBA, it states that the player and Club must negotiate in good faith. The Eagles and TO when they entered into the agreement knew exactly what they were getting from one another.
In the case of the Jets, like TO's case, I believe that they agreed to the deal and they should face the consequences.
Posted By : bhbarron1
All great points. But I'm not advocating by any m...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 07:44:00
All great points. But I'm not advocating by any means that T.O. should have attempted to renegotiate. Non-guaranteed contracts is, hands down, solely a collective bargaining issue, and CBA negotiations are very complex in any industry.
Under the system, the Jets are well within their rights by saying to Pennington, "take less or you're cut." Thus, I don't understand the comment that the Jets should have to "face the consequences" of entering a bad deal. But the system in football has always intrigued me from a contract law standpoint, whereby one party is not in breach for terminating the contract before the end of the term -- an unusual legal concept.
Regarding the Boras interview, if I were representing baseball players, I (like Boras) would also have the view that renegotiation is a bad thing because baseball's system of guaranteed contracts is going to benefit my "underperforming" clients, which I suspect happens more often than a player "overperforming" on his contract (But I'm sure there are examples so feel free to point them out :) ). But in baseball, when the player is overperforming, the club sometimes negotiates an extension, which ends up paying the player what he's worth anyways.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
To answer the original question, I think they are ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 10:18:00
To answer the original question, I think they are the same thing. Both are trying to re-negotiate deals to their best advantage. Its not like this is the first time its been done on either the player or the team side.
All that said, I also think it WAS about TO. I'm sure there are other players who wouldn't have gotten the media beatdown that he did. On the other hand, it only started off as a beatdown for trying to renegotiate his contract. It quickly escalated, and that was because he couldn't keep quiet.
I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to say whatever he feels is on his chest. I'm sure I heard "That's just how TO is" from every third commentator. But,it takes the emphasis off the relevant issue (whether he deserves to be paid more for what he brings to the Eagles) and places it on everything in the world BUT that. How, exactly, did that help him?
Trying to renegotiate your contract when you have the advantage does make you a rational economic actor, in my opinion. That doesn't make it RIGHT necessarily, but it makes economic sense. It was the "negotiate" part that TO had the problem with.
Posted By : robin
First, it is not true that football contracts are ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 10:21:00
First, it is not true that football contracts are not guaranteed. They are partially guaranteed, and some have a majority guaranteed. Because for many players a significant portion of their contract is paid in signing bonus, which is guaranteed. Watch the rookie contracts for the first 10 picks this year.
As for the contract system, it's really not that unusual. The players are simply very highly paid at-will employees. Either party can terminate at any time. The only difference to a normal employment relationship is that if the employee quits, his options for getting paid to play football somewhere else are very limited.
Posted By : John
Aren't the GM's in basketball paid millions of dol...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:09:00
Aren't the GM's in basketball paid millions of dollars to scout. Amare and Lebron and Monta Ellis and Tony Parker and others contribute in their first years. Others do not. The percentage of highschoolers that perform is greater than that of college seniors. It is the GM's job to hit or miss. Constuct a system that 'dummifies' GM's is one that also should include a salary cap on them moreso than the players. Aren't the gm's professionals?
Davis Stern is a genius. But he is also full of shxx. The league wants Lebron James and Greg Oden and others that can obviously contribute to an NBA team (moreso than Mario Kasun or Travis
Diener) to build name recognition before they enter the league. It is not about the performances, it's about the dough.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Exactly, smittybanton. It's the NBA admitting its ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:25:00
Exactly, smittybanton. It's the NBA admitting its GMs can't control themselves.
http://highfivehoopschool.blogspot.com/2006/02/david-stern-admits-truth.html
Posted By : Brian
Also, in support of Mike's intimations that this r...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:28:00
Also, in support of Mike's intimations that this rule relates to race:
That something is economically sound does not make it non-racist. Slavery was not about racial hatred it was about exploiting cheap labor. The hatred was created as a means to maintain the economic system.
Some people don't hire blacks, not because they have an intrinsic hatred, but because a homogenous workforce will, they believe, be more productive. Same thing as it relates to sex.
Focusing on racial animus is overplayed and misdirects energies. Thus, Greg is correct to suggest that what is good for the league financially inures also to the players, many of whom do come from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is wrong to suggest, though, that curtailing people's rights (to earn a living), transferring one's income potential to another, all by authoritarian rule, is automatically justified by the unproven (and in this case very doubtful) assertion that it is good for the industry and might trickle down to the players. We would fight such a thing coming from the public government, and do no less when it is a private government (monoplized industry).
Furthermore, the context in which we are speaking is the transfer of wealth creation rights of a group comprised dominantly of blacks, and the wealth is transferred to a groups (NCAA student populations and NBA owners) comprised dominantly of whites. Perhaps it need not be the concern of whites to oppose these rules, but surely it is the responsibility of blacks to each other.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
All of the posts against T.O., valid or not, raise...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:33:00
All of the posts against T.O., valid or not, raise the same question Rick asked and nobody answers, why aren't the Jets spoken of in the same manner.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Great score Mike. I find Zwyicki to be very thoug...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:50:00
Great score Mike. I find Zwyicki to be very thoughtful in his advocacy.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Signing bonuses are not the same as guaranteed con...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 12:59:00
Signing bonuses are not the same as guaranteed contracts. Only the top players like Peyton Manning receive signing bonuses that have the same effect. I generally have no problem with NFL players trying to renegotiate their contracts because of situations like Pennington. Keenan McCardell and Adewele Ogunleye are good examples of players who tried to renegotiate (and were ultimately successful in forcing a trade to a team who would renegotiate) because they didn't have a significant signing bonus to fall back on. Given the length of NFL players' careers and the risk of injury, an NFL player should be able to renegotiate a contract if he can. The problem with TO is that all this happened less than one year after forcing a trade (to Baltimore and then to Philly because he wasn't happy in Baltimore).
Posted By : Joe Rosen
John, I don't think you can accurately describe NF...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 13:25:00
John, I don't think you can accurately describe NFL players as at-will employees, because their contracts are for a definite term. Also, NFL contracts may not be terminated for bad cause. Although the termination clause is broadly worded and relies on the Club's analysis of a player's skill, termination for lack of skill in this context is "for casue."
Posted By : Robby
Thanks Dre, I appreciate your note. Todd and I ha...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 13:56:00
Thanks Dre, I appreciate your note. Todd and I had a good discussion, and I'm grateful that so many students and faculty attended. It was a fun event, and we had some great questions from the audience. As you noted, Todd is a very thoughtful scholar and advocate, so that enhanced the discussion immeasurably.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Mr. Lindsey,
I'd love to debate you in the ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 14:46:00
Mr. Lindsey,
I'd love to debate you in the mean streets of Atlanta. I guess I'll jump in my flashy Honda Accord, and my suburban West Philadelphia roots, and be so scared of you and your class. Please. I'll debate you as to this issue anywhere, and especially in front of your students. I am on the FIU College of Law website. You can contact me any way you'd like.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
tommie,
Fortune 500 Ceo's do wear jeans and...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 14:54:00
tommie,
Fortune 500 Ceo's do wear jeans and some wear cowboy hats, because they are important enough. period. your conclusions to the contrary evidence your inexperience.
Andre
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Uh, ok, then they have employment agreements that ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 15:06:00
Uh, ok, then they have employment agreements that have termination clauses that have the same effect as "at will" employment. Still not all that unusual. And it's not unusual for an employee and employer to agree on compensation amount for a "term" even though the employee can be terminated at any time. Employers and employees do that all the time (it's called an annual salary).
As for signing bonuses, just about every player in the league gets a signing bonus. That is the guaranteed portion of their contract (even 6th rounders get signing bonuses; even rookie free agents get signing bonuses!). It is the size of the guaranteed portion of the contract that increases with the talent (and leverage) of the player. So, it is incorrect as a factual matter to say that NFL contracts are not guaranteed.
Posted By : john
Mr. Lindsey,
Also, your assumption that I c...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 15:32:00
Mr. Lindsey,
Also, your assumption that I could not have come from the city, or the mean streets of Rivderdale, Ga, is very illuminating.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Sorry, John, still not buying it. A "guaranteed" ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 15:33:00
Sorry, John, still not buying it. A "guaranteed" contract means that a player will get paid even if his contract is terminated. NFL contracts have no such guarantees. And you're wrong about all players receiving signing bonuses. Not all do. It is a matter of individual negotiation. And usually we are not talking about that large of a number.
Posted By : Joe Rosen
Under the current NBA CBA, I believe Mr. Davis can...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 17:39:00
Under the current NBA CBA, I believe Mr. Davis can appeal the suspension by filing a grievance arbitration....but because the suspension is less than 15 games, the case could only be heard by the commissioner, right? How would you decide the case if YOU were the commissioner? What standard would you use in coming up with the decision?
Thanks,
Posted By : popcorn
John,
You make some good points. But when ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-17 - 19:30:00
John,
You make some good points. But when I said earlier that it "is an unusual concept," what I mean by that is that NFL contracts have a set term for a number of years in which the player is bound to play for that team for that term, but the employer is not bound. Now, the player can quit, but if he wants to play for another team, the team is entitled to an injunction prohibiting the player from playing for another team for the remainder of the term. So it's not like a typical "at will" employment situation like you are suggesting. In a typical at-will situation, even if an employee gets a signing bonus, that employee can still quit and go work for someone else -- which you acknowledge makes it different than in the NFL, but then at the same time you say that NFL contracts are not unusual. So I guess I'm trying to follow your reasoning that it's a typical at-will situation (as you say, similar to people making an annual salary).
I drafted many employment contracts in my "corporate law days," but never drafted a contract with provisions analogous to NFL contracts. Most of the agreements I drafted that contained any employment term gave the employer the right to terminate only for cause (i.e. employee didn't show up; commission of a felony; etc.), and if the employee was terminated other than for cause, the employee was entitled to compensation for the remainder of the term. And if it's truly an at-will employment situation (which means either side can walk away), there is basically no need to even have an employment agreement -- most at will employees don't.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Being a Jets fan it is tough answering this questi...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 05:49:00
Being a Jets fan it is tough answering this question. However the correct answer is it is very similar to a player renegotiating a contract. The Jets should have done a better evaluation of Pennington before givin him the contract. He has NEVER played a full season. Just as a player who has a good year (Pennington for this contract, or other player for their's) teams take gambles locking up players in certain years. Maybe the Jets though Pennington would throw 30 TDs and 10 INTs in the upcoming season before they signed him. There is always a gamble for these contracts, usually it is for the team if the contract includes a large signing bonus upfront.
The Jets have the right to ask, just as T.O. , however the Jets have the right to cut a player while T.O.'s rights , while under contract remained with the Eagles.
Nobody in their right mind would think Pennington would give up 7 million dollars only to have a "chance" to get it back with incentives after having two major shoulder surgeries.
The Jets made this move to make a statement that they are starting this whole franchise over and Pennington is not a part of their plans.
Maybe they hoped he would realize he will never be a starter in NY again, and negotiate a settlement, or maybe they are sending a message to other teams that they want a new QB and would be open to trade Abraham for one.
Whatever the case, it is very similar to T.O., worth a shot, and highly unlikely to happen.
Posted By : tommie
Prof McCann,
It just makes me wonder how ma...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 05:56:00
Prof McCann,
It just makes me wonder how many violations nobody hears about. How often do you think these violation occur? At the college level i wonder how many things we do not hear bout that go on frequently. I once heard Rick Majerus got in trouble for buying a player a piece of pizza. Now, there should be nothing wrong with that. But how far can these coaches go, should they be able to go, and how far do they actually go?
Does this behavior happen in just the major conferences or even in the mid major conferences? Another question is which sports does it occur more in, basketball or football? Or even other ones?
Posted By : tommie
I think you have to look at the intent of the part...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 06:08:00
I think you have to look at the intent of the parties when the contract was formed. It seems like the lawyers for the Angels put above mentioned clause in the contract on purpose. Was it clever? Well maybe, however it was not unambigous or tricky. It seems like there should have been better lawyering on the other side to recognize this, as it is not tricky enough where any violation of contract law has occurred.The opposing party should have said something before the contract was signed as it is pretty clear what it says. But this is an another example of poor lawyering, maybe these law firms should stop hiring lawyers as they do, and use a new procedure when hiring. Maybe they should take a look at the law career blog!!! http://law-career.blogspot.com/Because it is not that there are not good lawyers out there, it is that firms are hiring lawyers the wrong way!
There is no doubt in my mind that the lawyer overlooked this, or maybe was not even told to look for this, and should not be saved from his mistake of very poor judgement.
Posted By : tommie
Michael,
Interesting case. Reading the con...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 08:04:00
Michael,
Interesting case. Reading the contract language in the opinion, I think the judge made the right decision. The contract permits termination "for cause" which is defined as:
1. material breach;
2. an NCAA violation that results in a "major" infraction investigation and which results in a finding of a lack of institutional control or sanctions imposed upon Ohio State; and
3. any improper conduct that, in Ohio State's reasonable judgment, reflects adversely on O.S.
Provision No. 2 is clearly not met here and the provision obviously evidences an intent of the parties not to permit such a drastic remedy of termination for just any NCAA rule violation. Ohio State didn't assert the right to terminate under No. 3, and I don't believe this situation arises to the level of the legal definition of material breach (especially in light of the language in No. 2).
So what is the real motivation behind Ohio State's termination?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Tommie,
I think I've talked about this befo...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 15:30:00
Tommie,
I think I've talked about this before but I work on my campus with people in athletics and let me explain that there are so many rules that every school volates the rules at some point over the year. You only hear about some obscure and bad violations (like you said the pizza and this O'Brien's money).
I think Ohio State should have a right to terminate O'Brien as coach if they could prove something else against their institutions mission statement which they failed to do. And also, just to suggest, does this case create the problem of what is a firable offense?
Posted By : Ryguy
Speaking on the comments of people suing people, t...
Message posted on : 2006-02-18 - 15:32:00
Speaking on the comments of people suing people, the LA times reports that Cade McNown will sure insurance companies.
Story link: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-mcnown18feb18,1,6114561,print.story?coll=la-headlines-sports
Where I found it (my webpage link):
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/02/18/extra-points/3674/
Posted By : Ryguy
I'm a college senior looking for a Massachusetts a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-19 - 23:09:00
I'm a college senior looking for a Massachusetts affiliated Sports Law oriented organization and this blog looks to be a good source of information for up and coming lawyers.
Posted By : John McKee
The fundimental differance is the leverage used. ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-19 - 23:31:00
The fundimental differance is the leverage used.
The Jets used what was within the contract. They have a right to cut players and they pay for it.
TO, after contracting to be a football player, refused to play.
Posted By : Anonymous
That's awesome.. and yeah, I would have to be drun...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 10:40:00
That's awesome.. and yeah, I would have to be drunk to wear that..
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
"... she stopped eating out for six or seven month...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 14:35:00
"... she stopped eating out for six or seven months." Uh, not kick someone who is down, but I imagine most dotors and nutritionists would say that not eating fast food for 6 or 7 months might the healthist thing this woman has done!
Posted By : David
I have started a celtics blog www.celticshotspot.b...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 19:19:00
I have started a celtics blog www.celticshotspot.blogspot.com an i put in a chat for people to come doring games an talk about whats goin on. An also for people to come in the chat anytime to talk about what needs to be done. SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!
Posted By : xtremecelticsfan
How many potential or actual explosive devices hav...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 22:15:00
How many potential or actual explosive devices have been found on fans attending ball games?
Do we pat dowm all those who attend movies, restaurants, departmewnt stores and the many other places people gather?
Warrantless searches only pour more water on the slope.
"We have to give up some of our personal freedoms to ensure security", states Professor McCann.
Giving up personal freedoms DOES NOT insure security. It only allows others,who are so inclined, to impose their brand of "protection" on others.
Posted By : Richard Mock
My impression is that many of the Constitutional c...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 23:10:00
My impression is that many of the Constitutional claims are based on the fact that the stadiums are owned by the cities or counties in which they are located, thus satisfying the state action requirement.
Are there any teams that own their own stadium? Wouldn't that eliminate the state action? Or is there some other way the Constitution would be implicated?
Posted By : Nye!
"Those who give up freedom in order to obtain a li...
Message posted on : 2006-02-20 - 23:45:00
"Those who give up freedom in order to obtain a little temporary security, shall have neither freedom nor security."--Benjamin Franklin
It's funny to me how one side can use this phrase and it fits their argument (Bush using the NSA to wiretap "American Citizens", a lady stands up in the crowd with a sign misquoting Franklin) and then you can use the same phrase on the other side and it fits as well.
I for one do not like searches. Period. At all. End of story. I won't go to a game in a stadium. Most of the times, they find not weapons, or bombs... but alcohol, or that Dasani water I'm trying to smuggle in.
Again, "those who give up freedom in order to obtain a little temporary security, shall have neither freedom nor security".... those words are perfect in our day and age.
Posted By : Stephen
People choose to attend sporting events and thus a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 00:51:00
People choose to attend sporting events and thus are welcome to submit to whatever security measures as are deemed necessary.
This controversy (and as a Tampan I can attest to it) is not so much the act but the fact that we, the residents of Hillsborough County, must pay for the extravagance of the searches through our tax dollars. The Glazer family, nor the ticketholders, are paying for the operation -- the taxpayers (who fund the Tampa Sports Authority) do. It's a total scam being imposed on the taxpayers.
Posted By : tim in tampa
Many at-will employees have employment agreements ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 09:13:00
Many at-will employees have employment agreements -- these agreements set forth terms about competing against the employer, confidentiality obligations, "work-for-hire" rules, arbitration, etc., etc.
The bottom line is that the players negotiated away 100% guaranteed contracts in the CBA. That's not the Jets' fault. They are following the terms of the contract, which was following the rules of the CBA. If TO doesn't like those rules, he should speak with Mr. Upshaw.
Posted By : john
Do you have any evidence for your assertion that w...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 15:38:00
Do you have any evidence for your assertion that we haven't had more incidents like 9/11 because of stadium security or did you just make that up?
Posted By : Anonymous
Richard and "anonymous": to my knowledge, there is...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 16:15:00
Richard and "anonymous": to my knowledge, there is no "proof" that stadium security has stopped a terrorist attack, but that doesn't establish that stadium security hasn't deterred an attack. And yes, the fact that there has not been an attack does speak well of stadium security--that is why I used the word "tribute" rather than "assertion" (please read carefully). And I'm not sure how you can dispute that -- do you want them to find a nuclear device in someone's tote bag to validate their techniques?
Stephen: I don't think it's an all-or-nothing proposition: we can have some security without it becoming a fascist state. Should we eliminate all searches, including those for boarding a plane?
Nye: your constitutional law points are important, and I hope people take a look at them.
Tim: great distinction: people chose to go to games. It's an often forgotten point in this debate, particularly by those who think any form of security or monitoring is inherently evil, or the beginning of some kind of slippery slope/parade of terribles into an Orwellian World.
Posted By : Michael McCann
There are a lot more people at risk in a stadium, ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 16:35:00
There are a lot more people at risk in a stadium, especially a big game like the super bowl, than a movie theatre.
Posted By : tommie
I think the judge got it wrong -- I think it was a...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 16:55:00
I think the judge got it wrong -- I think it was a breach of the agreement. The agreement clearly included a requirement that O'Brien comply with NCAA rules and regs. He did not. That was a breach; and in my mind it is material.
That being said, Ohio State clearly made a mistake too, by not mentioning #3 in its termination letter.
One interesting thing -- given the judge's opinion, Ohio State would have been better off not including a separate termination clause (#2) for the violation of NCAA rules and regs.
Posted By : john
While the original article was interesting it make...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 18:08:00
While the original article was interesting it makes grand generalizations implying that sleep apnea and drinking are mental illnesses and that slightly manic people are on the verge of bi-polar. While many of the same tendenancies are exhibited in Presidents, Coaches and star players (think leadership) it is not necessarily a bad thing like the stigma mental illness carries.
Posted By : Brian Barnes
Michael:
We do not have any proof that sear...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 23:41:00
Michael:
We do not have any proof that searches have prohibited an attack? If a search did stop a serious incident the present administration and the press would report this.
Is "tribute" a cop-out word?
No, I do not want to find a bomb. But if a bomb does get this close to a large group of individuals it may be too late in any instance.
The real answer to this issue is how to find a legal and acceptable way to guard against those who would do us harm.
Searches are fine, but let's not forget probable cause.
Searches or monitoring is not "evil". However, this is how "good intentions" can lead us to that slippery slope.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Michael:
Very interesting article on "Menta...
Message posted on : 2006-02-21 - 23:56:00
Michael:
Very interesting article on "Mental Illness and Leadership Positions".
Personality traits and leadership is an interesting issue that deserves some study. If you do find a study or two on this topic I would be interested in looking at these. If I come across any studies I will let you know.
Thanks for an interesting issue.
Posted By : Richard Mock
I was very intriqued by this article.
I co...
Message posted on : 2006-02-22 - 01:31:00
I was very intriqued by this article.
I come from a background involving people with mental illness and as I learned about their diseases I was struck by the vast amounts of people who are effected. Most people do not look at a hypermanic person and think "bipolar". Instead, that President, Coach, Artist, or Businessman is "driven" or "motivated."
There are numerous books and reports that have discussed the fact that many people who take on these leadership or artistic positions almost need to be slightly manic. And contrary to what was posted prior, being slightly manic can be symptomatic of bipolar disorder.
An interesting way to look at that disease in particular is to look at artists. Many great artists have been thought to have had bipolar disorder. Most creative persons with the disorder will not get it treated because medication ruins their creative muse.
It would not surprise me if many coaches had some sort of mental illness... even to just a tiny degree. I think that leadership positions require so much of a person that often the traits you'll get are those over-achievers who don't stop. And remember, with the highs come the lows... Just think of some of the most volatile coaches. Makes you wonder...
Posted By : Bobbi-Sue
Looks like an issue for moot court!
Message posted on : 2006-02-22 - 13:38:00
Looks like an issue for moot court!
Posted By : Anonymous
Ahh.. Professor McCann... you hit the nail on the ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-22 - 23:17:00
Ahh.. Professor McCann... you hit the nail on the head!
I would in fact stop searches on planes. It didn't help on 9/11. It didn't help on Pan Am 103. It didn't help on all the other planes that were hijacked.
Instead of banning "weapons" on planes, stadiums, or whatever... let's work on banning the criminals.
And by banning I mean either 1) putting away for life or 2) executing. I think one will find that this is a better solution than taking law abiding Americans freedoms away.
"Live Free or Die"!
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
I for one would strongly support two women ice dan...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 08:24:00
I for one would strongly support two women ice dancing.
Posted By : Anonymous
An example from the other side: the rules for doub...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 08:56:00
An example from the other side: the rules for doubles luge were changed in 1994 so that women are not excluded.
As yet, no female or co-ed team has ever competed in the Olympics.
Posted By : Amateur
What a fantastic post! I've been asking these ques...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 09:29:00
What a fantastic post! I've been asking these questions for years now.
Posted By : tim in tampa
Stephen:
"Live free or die" for whom? ALL ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 10:39:00
Stephen:
"Live free or die" for whom? ALL criminals either in jail or die???
Sounds like a good remedy for those in charge.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard, I think you misunderstand... it's a state...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 11:36:00
Richard, I think you misunderstand... it's a state's motto. (New Hampshire I believe???) that basically says that they would rather die than not have freedom (i.e. a government telling them what to do).
I could be wrong about which state it is, and I don't feel like googling it.
And let me tell you that if I were to be in "charge" of things, I would make Rape and Pedophilia a capital offense punishable by death. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
A few questions:
Has a suit of this nature ever...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 11:38:00
A few questions:
Has a suit of this nature ever been filed before? If so, what was the outcome? If not, why is this issue just now being litigated? To my personal knowledge, athletes have complained about this issue for years.
Posted By : Packy
Stephen: Some questions:
Do ALL crimes qual...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 13:28:00
Stephen: Some questions:
Do ALL crimes qualify for either life in prison or execution?
Would you allow due process such an being indicted, access to an attorney, a hearing or trial and access to an appeal procedure?
Should the punishment fit the crime?
Would you eliminate the flexibility in our judicial system such as determinent sentencing, parole,probation,ability to plea bargain, ability to sentence those who qualify (mental health individuals) to treatment and/or therapy, without eliminating life without parole and the death sentence?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard,
ALL crimes can't possibly be punis...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 14:20:00
Richard,
ALL crimes can't possibly be punished by incarceration or death! Have you ever had a speeding ticket?
I'm saying major ones. Rape. Molestation. Murder. Robbery. Carjacking. Home invasion.
You tell me. What punishment fits the crime of rape? Or molestation? What about carjacking? Do we "jack" their car?
I'm in class now, but I'll follow up with a lengthier post later.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Wondering out loud here...because Section 1 of the...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 14:34:00
Wondering out loud here...because Section 1 of the Sherman Act only prohibits "unreasonable" restraints of trade, it is possible that a court would view these "incidentals" as de minimis restraints, and therefore, not unreasonable as a matter of law?
Posted By : Damian Marshall
Packy and Damian: thanks for those excellent comme...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 19:15:00
Packy and Damian: thanks for those excellent comments/questions.
I do not believe a suit like this has been filed before, although the Jeremy Bloom case appears pertinent. Bloom v. National Collegiate Athletic Association, 93 P.3d 621 (Colo. Ct. App. 2004) - Bloom couldn't play football after being a pro skier. It wasn't an antitrust case obviously, but it further displays the efforts by the NCAA to preclude its student-members from earnings. See also Greg Skidmore, Payment for College Football Players in Nebraska, 41 Harv. J. on Legis. 319 (2004).
Perhaps also relevant, the NCAA has lost on antitrust grounds in regards to compensation of coaches. In Law v. NCAA, 134 F.3d 1010 (10th Cir.), cert. denied, 119 S. Ct. 65 (1998), the 10th Circuit applied Rule of Reason analysis to invalidate an NCAA rule that limited compensation to entry-level college coaches. The rule was considered unacceptably anticompetitive.
As to whether the incidentals are de minimims restraints, that's a good question. I guess it depends on the plaintiff in question -- for someone living around the poverty line, "incidentals" seem profoundly valuable; for others, perhaps less so. I'm not sure of the median socio-economic characteristics of college football and basketball players, but that would seem relevant.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I completely agree. The Olympics -- which I am su...
Message posted on : 2006-02-23 - 20:50:00
I completely agree. The Olympics -- which I am surprised that I'm watching, by the way -- have totally changed my daily web-browsing habits. I completely avoid sites like ESPN.com (hard) deadspin.com (harder) and cnn.com (hardest). I even don't listen to the radio when I'm in the car. I initially thought NPR wouldn't spoil the results for me, but that hope was dashed early.
You might think that the plus side of this is that I'm doing less web browsing generally. That's true, but I'm losing that time on the other end by watching way more TV than I otherwise would. *Sigh...*
Posted By : Nye!
TV isn't much better - ESPN and CNN Headline News ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-24 - 00:34:00
TV isn't much better - ESPN and CNN Headline News have both spoiled results for me. Since I work at a sports bar with 4 dozen TVs, its impossible to avoid.
Posted By : Adam
NBCOlympics.com/tv only shows news of events that ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-24 - 01:42:00
NBCOlympics.com/tv only shows news of events that have already aired.
I miss having CBC, which showed everything live, regardless of where the Games were that year.
Posted By : tim in tampa
What is the goal of this. I realize your views of ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-24 - 05:33:00
What is the goal of this. I realize your views of normal have changed over time, but shouldnt tradition stay the same. It is tradition for them to be separate, is that so terrible. Yes we have "normalized" many things in America but why do people have such a problem with tradition. Is it sexist to have separate sports. I suppose you would like in the future for everything to be equal, however I am not ready to urinate next to a female. I ralize I am going a bit overboard but the point is tradition is not always bad. Let us get rid of G-d bless America at games because people dont believe in G-d. Somethings which are traditions should be kept.
Posted By : Anonymous
I've noticed in the California League (baseball) t...
Message posted on : 2006-02-24 - 07:07:00
I've noticed in the California League (baseball) that after 9/11 fans cannot bring in a backpack (though a large purse is ok) nor water in a sealed bottle. Water wasn't a problem before the attacks. I think 9/11 is an excuse to violate the constitution. And, how dangerous is Dasani, anyway?
Posted By : Joe
CBC does show a lot live, and does a better job th...
Message posted on : 2006-02-24 - 08:28:00
CBC does show a lot live, and does a better job than NBC.
I was just going to comment that the very first time I ever used a web browser, it was to check some winter Olympic results from Lillehammer. Of course that was just some guy in his kitchen transcribing results and scanned photos, so it wasn't quite the "real-time" phenomenon that it is today.
Posted By : Amateur
Part of the barrier that has been set up against t...
Message posted on : 2006-02-26 - 00:50:00
Part of the barrier that has been set up against the type of changes you imagine has been erected by comments like the ones you make to begin the post about being less of a man for watching ice dancing anc qualifying your viewing habits with excuses based on the attractiveness of the participants. Your comments are actually very similar to ones I heard last week from ESPN commentators who were being forced to talk about ice dancing and so opted to talk about how desirable Tanith Belbin is and if *wink, wink* the rule to never be apart (which actually isn't a rule in ice dancing the way these guys presented it) applied off the ice and if so--then these guys wanted to sign up for ice dancing *chuckle, chuckle*.
But if you really want to see non gender normative athletics including all-male pairs skating come to the Gay Games in Chicago this summer.
Posted By : ken
1. Every big man in the All-Star game (at least 6...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 11:28:00
1. Every big man in the All-Star game (at least 6'9), except Ben Wallace, was a known commodity at age 18.
2. If going to college is so great for a basketball player, college seniors, by virtue of their extensive apprenticeship, should dominate the NBA, the CBA, or the Euroleagues. They do not.
Since Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry, and Tyson Chandler are such busts and the reasons why we shouldn't take highschoolers, then those teams should have taken the college seniors available, Shane Battier and Brendan Haywood; and been no better off today after four years in the league.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Mike wrote: "Too bad the NBA couldn't create a rul...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 12:53:00
Mike wrote: "Too bad the NBA couldn't create a rule that protects itself from drafting poor players, because that is what it really needs."
Actually, they could -- it's called non-guaranteed contracts. What do you want to bet Stern would trade any and all age limits if the players gave up guaranteed money? And this makes the most business sense -- let's pay the players who are producing. You think the players would go for this?
Posted By : Greg
I think it's reasonable for the NBA to take the po...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 15:03:00
I think it's reasonable for the NBA to take the position that they will do a better job evaluating a player if they get to see him play more often against better competition. I also think it's reasonable for the NBA to want kids who have already built their "brand" before they get to the NBA (see, e.g., Jordan, Magic, Bird, J.J. Redick, etc.). It's also reasonable for NBA teams not to want to have have to babysit some 18 year old.
And since age restrictions are clearly legal, those are probably good enough reasons for the NBA to impose an age restriction.
p.s. Tim Duncan wasn't a known commodity at 18. In fact, even when he was drafted there were planety of experts saying he was too soft to play in the NBA.
Posted By : john
I think this story takes on additional store in li...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 15:56:00
I think this story takes on additional store in light of the Winter Olympics, where it became commonplace--if not morally defensible--to root against certain American athletes. In an indirect way, this story exposes Bode Miller, Shani Davis and Chad Hedrick for the imbeciles they are. - Damer
Posted By : Anonymous
Not sure about 18 but I am pretty sure Tim Duncan ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 20:52:00
Not sure about 18 but I am pretty sure Tim Duncan was ACC player of the Year when he was 19yo so that argument is not overly strong. My problem with the age restriction is that Stern felt the need to "protect" the teams from their own decisions, If the owner of my team continues to make poor decisions, see Kwame Brown, then it is his bad call and I may change my allegiance to some other team. What the age restriction really did was change was when a players second contract ran from and to if you start at 18 the first contract runs out as 21/22 and the second contract is in the prime years, if you push that back less prime years especially on the back end of the guaranteed money and the money the owner's make multiplies.
Posted By : Brian Barnes
It is just like hiring lawyers. Law firms complain...
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 21:23:00
It is just like hiring lawyers. Law firms complain law school is not grazing the students properly, well it is more like the firms do not know how to hire. Just because you play at a certain school, are a certain age, went to a prestigous school (whether for basketball or law) does not mean anything. At this point it is about the person, what they have put in at that school.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie
That analogy appears to be flawed......
Message posted on : 2006-02-27 - 23:40:00
Tommie
That analogy appears to be flawed...high school basketball competition is hardly a grazing ground or weeding out mechanism for future competition (where law school actually is because there are many levels one must endure to become an attorney: high school, college, and actually getting through law school. Furthermore, what a high school or college player has contributed or "put in" to their school can hardly be a tool to measure future success. There are too many unsuccessful all-state, McDonald's all-americans, or NCAA superstar basketball players they never made it, even though they contributed or "put in" to their schools.
Posted By : Packy
Gerald Green plays for a struggling team that need...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 08:41:00
Gerald Green plays for a struggling team that needs all the help it can get. Hodge plays for a playoff team that might not need him to make a contribution. By this logic, the Pistons' Jason Maxiell and the Heat's Wayne Simien are total busts, less than 60 games into their careers, becuase they can't crack the roster of established playoff teams. By the same logic then, the Lakers must have lost their touch drafting Andrew Bynum. Grading how well NBA scouts can judge talent less than a season into a player's rookie season is like taste-testing cookies after baking them for three minutes.
Posted By : Taco John
Link should be fixed now.
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 09:37:00
Link should be fixed now.
Posted By : Greg
Packy, I am not sure i follow your argument. I bel...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 10:54:00
Packy, I am not sure i follow your argument. I believe it needs more clarification. However in the basketball world it does matter where ou go to highschool sometime. Certain highschool recruit players, such as Oak Hill. They recruit players from AAU, so you still have to put in your time sometimes to be a well known prepstar.
You say " Furthermore, what a high school or college player has contributed or "put in" to their school can hardly be a tool to measure future success."
The same thing happens for students whether you get a 4.0 or 3.0 or even a 2.0 does not mean you will be a better lawyer, banker, or doctor. However it still comes down to juding talen, especially in basketball.
Posted By : tommie
That is simply awesome.
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 12:59:00
That is simply awesome.
Posted By : Lance
Without seeing the rest of the roster, it is a bit...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 14:37:00
Without seeing the rest of the roster, it is a bit premature to say that there is some vast paternalistic conspiracy to leave Iverson and his tattoos off the Olympic team.
Here are some other possible reasons:
(1) Iverson has already played in the Olympics. Thus, he had his chance for a gold medal.
(2) He has never won a championship, in college or in the pros.
(3) His style of play does not fit into the team that Colangelo is building.
(4) His stats are meaningless. Guess what, he led the 2004 Olympic team in scoring while playing the most minutes. And that team did not win.
(5) Look at some other stats. He also led that Olympic team in shots attempted and three-pointers attempted. He was next-to-last in field goal percentage. Perhaps this does not fit Colangelo's idea of a team player.
The whole point of this new Olympic idea was to assemble the best TEAM, regardless of statistics. No one has seen the final roster, but I bet there will be some tattoos on the court. I also bet that the team will gel and will dominate on the way to the gold medal. And they won't miss Iverson in doing so.
Posted By : Greg
John,
You raise three good points. However...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 16:11:00
John,
You raise three good points. However, even when where you are factually correct, your inferences do not necessarily follow.
1. It is reasonable for one to hypothesize that college makes it easier to scout athletes. Reasonable does not mean correct. In this case, the first reasonable inclination is easily rebutted by the comparative success rates: highschool players drafted by NBA teams are far more successful in the NBA than college seniors drafted by NBA teams.
2. The NBA has far more trouble "babysitting" college seniors. It is not highschool players who get in trouble, it is the collegians, Dennis Rodman, JR Rider, Chris Anderson, Damon Stoudamire, etc. Abuse of privilege for college basketball players in any other context except this debate is usually thought to be extremely troublesome. Why do we seek to perpetuate and even exacerbate it.
3. Tim Duncan was known to NBA scouts at age 18, was encouraged to come out as early as his freshman year, and his personal choice to stay in college is what makes him exemplary as a human. Assuming arguendo he wasn't known at 18, the fact that he is the only other exception further helps prove the point.
4. That it is reasonable for the NBA to wand kids to have a brand name is absolutely correct. There is no argument against this, other than a normative one involving age discrimination, inequitable racial competition, etc. As a black person, I do not like seeing other black people being denied the opportunity to exploit their talents. This of course need not be the concern of others, including David Stern; which is why I am more disappointed in Billy Hunter regarding this issue.
5. Age restrictions are legal...now. However, time will tell. The Non-Statutory Labor Antitrust Exemption does have limits, usually involving its impact on non-members of either bargaining unit. I hope one day it will be recognized that there is a limit to the extent which the employer and employee representatives can bind those not yet in the union. Those rules are under the auspices of the National Labor Relations Board, and need further examination. Aside from that, I return to criticizing my fellow HUSL alum, Billy Hunter.
Andre
Posted By : SmittyBanton
I love Iverson, however, where do you fit him in?<...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 16:21:00
I love Iverson, however, where do you fit him in?
He is not a point guard, especially a team oriented one. A two guard, yes but not over some of the others. He should be a nice 6th man spark plug combo guard that comes off the bench. These types of players are not winners when given major roles. Steve Francis, Marbury, Iverson, among others. However they make a nice move giving the team a rise off the bech. The offense would flow much smoother with Jason Kidd next too mcgrady and kobe or lebron or pierce. While Iverson may be able to defend a point guard, two guards can easily shoot over him as well. Maybe those are some more reasons. However he is a warrior and all out comeptitor and should not be left off the team, it just should not be built around him.
Posted By : tommie
Greg,
Have non-guaranteed contracts preven...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 16:22:00
Greg,
Have non-guaranteed contracts prevented NFL teams from bad draft choices?
The NBA doesn't NEED anything. Players and owners are making money hand over foot. All because we support the monopolistic practices on both sides. When we do, we are asking for these higher ticket prices.
Also, capping or otherwise reducing player salaries will not lower ticket prices. In a monopolistic enterprise, the cost savings will not be passed on to the consumer, it will be kept by the owners (unless of course they are not profit maximizers and came upon their fabulous wealth by happenstance).
Andre
Andre
Posted By : SmittyBanton
I totally agree with you! Iverson has been one of ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 16:44:00
I totally agree with you! Iverson has been one of the best players in the N.B.A. for years now, and he deserves a Olympic spot. But then again, he may not be the type player for Coach K. But still, he should be on the team
Posted By : Gary
Good point. I often advise students that working ...
Message posted on : 2006-02-28 - 17:40:00
Good point. I often advise students that working team (or league) side these days may involve a lot of immigration work. A less dramatic example: one of our grads who now works in basketball operations for an NBA team recently returned to campus, where he talked about how he spends a fair amount of time on immigration matters. Every time his NBA team travels to Toronto to play the Raptors, and every fall when players return from the off-season, the two or three non-U.S. citizens who play on the team need visa work.
Immigration law should probably be part of any "sports law certficate" program.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
"...highschool players drafted by NBA teams are fa...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 08:21:00
"...highschool players drafted by NBA teams are far more successful in the NBA than college seniors drafted by NBA teams."
Is this a true statement? I'm guessing there's a huge sample size problem.
Posted By : Anonymous
Here's another reason: Iverson is uncoachable. <...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 08:30:00
Here's another reason: Iverson is uncoachable.
I admire him for many of the same reasons Michael mentions. However, he has never been the epitome of teamwork or coachability.
Think about what Coach K requires at Duke. Could Iverson have played there?
It isn't about trophies for Iverson or giving him what he has asked for. It is about what Coach K believes is best for our Olympic team.
I have a feeling Coach K has a better sense of what it takes to win a basketball game than we do. (And I'm a UNC fan!)
Posted By : Anonymous
Let me start off by saying that it is unbelieveabl...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 09:30:00
Let me start off by saying that it is unbelieveable that AI has been left off of this team.
Let me also respond to a few of the assertions that have been made:
1. Iverson has already played in the Olympics.
Who cares? When has that been a standard? Hundreds of athletes have participated in more than one Olympic games. Thank God your standard didn't apply to Edwin Moses or Carl Lewis.
2. He has never won a championship.
Good point, let's also get Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemaire, Labron James, Jason Kidd, and about two dozen other great players off the list.
3. His style does not fit into the team.
How do you know? Have you sat down and talked with AI? Has he told you that he refuses to change his "style"? I think first and foremost AI is basketball player. He's been stuck on not so great teams for most of his career. I seem, however, to remember a few years ago when his "style" conformed with Larry Brown's coaching philosophy and the Sixers made the NBA finals.
4. His stats are meaningless.
Ok, perhaps we should evaluate him on his personality or his ability to rap.
5. Look at some other stats:
I thought stats were meaningless.
6. This is all about building the best TEAM.
Well, perhaps selecting a guy who has repeatedly stated that he wants to win for his country and will do whatever he can to help the team might be a good start.
7. Iverson doesn't fit the mold of a 1 or a 2.
Allen Iverson is one of the five best guards on the planet. To say that he can't contribute on the court against international players is nonsens. He's a basketball player. Put him on the court, tell him what to do and he'll succeed.
8. He's uncoachable.
He starred on a Larry Brown coached team that made the NBA finals. Hello? John Thompson, a strict disciplinarian, loves AI. This whole uncoachable label comes primarily from unidentified sources who want to blame someone for the fact that their coaching or their playing or their general management skills have contributed to Philadelphia not winning a NBA championship.
Posted By : Bill
The International game is different then the NBA. ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 11:37:00
The International game is different then the NBA. The refs let a lot more contact slide in the paint, much to Iverson's detriment. The competition also relies a lot more on 3 point shooting, a huge weakness in Iverson's game. I don't know how his jumpshot can buy him all those things in his reebok commercial when it cost him his spot on the team. False advertising.
Posted By : Anonymous
Sorry guys, but I have to disagree with most of yo...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 11:57:00
Sorry guys, but I have to disagree with most of you. I think the decision to leave Iverson off of the Olympic team is sound based on both observational and empirical evidence, and that Mike's paternalistic epidemic argument here is an unsubstantiated red herring.
Given the proliferation of zone defenses in international play, Iverson's strengths in quickness and the ability to dribble drive in a one-on-one isolation situation (he's among the best ever in these skill areas) are greatly diminished in the style of basketball. While nearly every possession in an NBA game involves some type of isolation play, it is almost non-existent in international basketball as teams pack in their zone defenses and force passing-based and outside shooting reliant offenses. Unfortunately, international basketbll simply minimizes the strengths of Iverson's game and emphasizes his weaknesses, particularly his outside shot (career 42% shooter). Any analysis of recent Olympic and world championship basketball will reveal similar findings.
For more empirical evidence, look at statistics such as plus/minus rating, which provides an analysis of truly how important it is for a team to have a particular player on the floor. While comparisons across teams with this metric are sketchy as some teams are inherently better than other, analyses within teams are particularly informative. Most of the top players in the league are either first or second on their respective teams in plus/minus rating, showing that their team is clearly better with them on the floor than off. Iverson is sixth on the 76ers in plus/minusthis season, trailing behind such all-time greats as Matt Barnes and Kyle Korver. Am I saying that these players are better than Iverson?...of course not. Is there both observational and empirical evidence to support the notion that Iverson should not be on the Olympic team?...absolutely yes.
Mike, you know better suggest that Colangelo and Krzyzewski's selections were based on paternalism (definition: the interference of a state or an individual with another person, against their will, and justified by a claim that the person interfered with will be better off or protected from harm) rather than sound evidence without some type of support for such a claim. Regardless, while I liked your paper on the topic, I fail to see the connection to this situation.
-Chad
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Excluding Darryl Dawkins, Moses Malone, and Bill P...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 12:20:00
Excluding Darryl Dawkins, Moses Malone, and Bill Peterson, we have at least the last 10 years for samples. You can go to www.nbadraft.net and test the hypothesis yourself. It is very, very clear. If that sample is not large enough, then I fear there will not ever be one that is.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
This is a bit off topic, but I was still curious a...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 13:48:00
This is a bit off topic, but I was still curious about the matter.
Does the NBA utilize any kind of intelligence or personality test like the NFL uses the Wonderlic on draft prospects?
One could argue that one reason there is an age limit is because the players are not mature or intelligent enough to handle the pressures of NBA life. If that were accurate, you would expect that players who had gone to college to have that maturity and understanding. However, you still have the Damon Stoudemires, the Keon Clarks, etc.
Rather than just having an age limit, the league could have implemented a series of standardized tests measuring the adaptability a player would have to the NBA lifestyle or how they could handle the new pressures that face them. There is no real way to predict how a player will act once he makes the transition into the NBA, but you'd get a better idea at the least.
Posted By : Ryan
The plus/minus really doesn't work with Iverson. ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 16:02:00
The plus/minus really doesn't work with Iverson. Over his career he's averaged 41.3 minutes per game. This year he's up to over 43 minutes per game. In effect, this means his plus/minus is really just the record of his team. Players like Kyle Korver have the luxury of playing just a few minutes a game. It's apples and oranges. Iverson is one of the best players on the planet. It is ludicrous to think that he can't bring value to the Olympic Team. Think of what his plus/minus stat would be if he was brought in for 10 to 15 minutes a game.
Posted By : Bill
Bill,
"A few minutes a game"? Please check...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 16:40:00
Bill,
"A few minutes a game"? Please check your facts in the future. Korver and Andre Iguodala, both well ahead of Iverson in plus/minus, average 32 and 38 minutes per game repectively.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
I have also read that the NFLPA is also considerin...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 18:12:00
I have also read that the NFLPA is also considering decertification as a means to head off a lockout. It seems to me that, having already used the tactic, a court might see this as simply a bargaining tactic and not as a true end to the bargaining relationship. What are your thoughts?
Posted By : Sidd Finch
Fact: Allen Iverson will be 34 in 2008.
Fact: ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 20:30:00
Fact: Allen Iverson will be 34 in 2008.
Fact: Iverson played at the last olympics and took more shots from the floor than anyone despite having the second worst field goal percentage on the team.
Fact: Iverson is an excellent if not elite NBA player.
Fact: NBA rules are quite different to international rules and excellent NBA players don't always make excellent international players.
Opinion: Whoever was in charge here did a pretty good job apart from a few bizarre selections (Bruce Bowen, Antawn Jamison, Luke Ridnour)
Posted By : Anonymous
Fact: Allen Iverson will be 34 in 2008
<...
Message posted on : 2006-03-01 - 23:34:00
Fact: Allen Iverson will be 34 in 2008
No, not a fact. Allen Iverson was born on June 7, 1975. He will turn 33 in 2008. And for a real fact, Larry Bird was 35 years old when he was a member of the 1992 Dream Team. I don't remember his age being an issue.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I agree with Stephen. Had the tables been turned,...
Message posted on : 2006-03-02 - 01:44:00
I agree with Stephen. Had the tables been turned, and had a Caucasian player used a certain word to describe the witnesses' race, the situation would have escalated to much more than a fine. Funny how we turn a blind eye / deaf ear when a non-Caucasian uses this type of language. (You may find surprising that I, myself, am non-Caucasian). I'd love to put together some type of questionnaire to see how [truly] academically sound the majority of NBA players are - without the assistance of professors obliged to handing out passing grades for the sake of a university's athletics programs.
** anonymous female NBA fan Denver, Colorado
Posted By : Anonymous
He starred on a Larry Brown coached team that m...
Message posted on : 2006-03-02 - 09:28:00
He starred on a Larry Brown coached team that made the NBA finals. Hello?"
Does starring on the team make him coachable? I think Larry Brown (not an unidentified source) spent much of his tenure there admiring AI's skills but deploring AI's unwillingness to play within Brown's philosophy (including coming to practice).
I don't know if AI ought to be on the team or not, but I think Coach K is entitled to deference in the decision, so long as the decision is based on basketball. I don't see how any of us can claim to be more knowledgeable about basketball and putting a team together.
I'm always curious why fans get so passionate about defending players they've seen only on t.v. or from the cheap seats. Why should anyone reading this sports law blog be upset if AI was snubbed?
Michael's initial theory -- possibility of culture bias -- is a good reason to be upset, if supportable by evidence. Seems to me the focus here ought to be on whether Michael's theory is supportable.
This ain't sports talk radio!
Posted By : Anonymous
great post
Message posted on : 2006-03-02 - 16:19:00
great post
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Building on anonymous' comment, there is evidence ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-02 - 16:24:00
Building on anonymous' comment, there is evidence available to test Michael's theory --- namely, the rest of the roster. Here are the names:
Carmelo Anthony, Denver
Gilbert Arenas, Washington
Shane Battier, Memphis
Chauncey Billups, Detroit
Chris Bosh, Toronto
Bruce Bowen, San Antonio
Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers
Dwight Howard, Orlando
Josh Howard, Dallas
LeBron James, Cleveland
Antawn Jamison, Washington
Joe Johnson, Atlanta
Rashard Lewis, Seattle
Shawn Marion, Phoenix
Brad Miller, Sacramento
Chris Paul, NO/Okla. City
Paul Pierce, Boston
Michael Redd, Milwaukee
Luke Ridnour, Seattle
Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix
Dwyane Wade, Miami
Michael's theory is that Iverson was left off because of a culture bias against "rap music," a "thug apperance" and "tattoos." I'm not sure how to test this theory against the roster, but isnt that what we should be doing? The roster does not seem to me to be a list designed to make a team entirely of "character guys." Michael, any thoughts?
Posted By : Joshua Wright
Joshua, you make a good point, as we need to compa...
Message posted on : 2006-03-02 - 17:43:00
Joshua, you make a good point, as we need to compare Iverson to those who made the team. But before doing so, I think it's worth asking what Iverson "represents" in the NBA. Particularly since he has been around for a while, it seems that many view him as the epitome of a "bad guy" and a "bad role model." Just consider when the NBA dress code was imposed on the players -- Iverson became the focal point of attention. That's not to say others on the list aren't infamous for assorted reasons (and certainly, Carmelo Anthony has received more than his fair-share of bad p.r.), but I think one might characterize Iverson as uniquely disliked and resented by older, often socially-conservative NBA fans.
As to the list, I agree that there are not many character guys (with Battier being one obvious exception). But at first glace, most appear to be relatively neutral or non-controversial, with Anthony, Arenas, and Bryant being exceptions--although one might argue that they do not carry the same image baggage that Iverson has built up over the years.
Along those lines, and not that this "proves" anything, but I just did a Lexis/Nexis search of "Iverson" w/10 "Thug" and found 161 results. I tried the same with Arenas, Anthony, and Bryant and Arenas had 0 results, Anthony had 3, and Bryant had 35. Again, this is not a scientific sampling, but perhaps it is suggestive of Iverson's uniquely poor reputation.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Hey, I like this blog, but what's up with that pos...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 01:23:00
Hey, I like this blog, but what's up with that post? It is just an internet urban legend.
You note that the source is dubious, but then proceed assuming it's mostly true.
What's next? A post on the number of people waking up in bathtubs of hotels with organs missing?
Posted By : dg
DG: The point of the post is that many people are ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 10:02:00
DG: The point of the post is that many people are fixated on the behavior of NBA and NFL players, but not on the behavior of those who we elect to Congress, which I find to be an odd result. If we could take the energy we spend on worrying about how Allen Iverson's tattoos will affect young Americans and direct it to how to prevent people like Dan Rostenkowski and Jim Traficant and Jim Wright from making a mockery of our political system, then I think that would be better off.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I don't know, I smell a strawman. What evidence i...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 11:31:00
I don't know, I smell a strawman. What evidence is there that we focus on NBA/NFL players more than Congressmen? To the contrary, I think one scandal or even the appearance of a scandal is enough to doom a politician (not that it shouldn't). In many ways, we hold our public officials to much higher standards such that we discourage people from entering public service because they don't want to go through the scrutiny. For example, the media was digging into Roberts's adoption of his kids to try and find dirt on him. Individuals have been disqualified because they didn't pay social security taxes for their help.
On the other hand, most NBA/NFL players can do just about anything they want and as long as they can still play well, we forget about their indiscretions and focus on their talents. Iverson is one of the most popular players in the league (one of the most overrated too, but that's another story).
And I'm in no way saying this is not the way it should or that there is anything wrong with this. You won't find a bigger NBA fan. My only point is that I don't think that the players are getting some kind of raw deal as compared to politicians.
Posted By : Anonymous
Great case Will & Mike. I wasn't aware of...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 11:35:00
Great case Will & Mike. I wasn't aware of it at all. In following up on the questions Will posed, I'm left wondering as to why this case may not have been settled before it ever went to the original trial. It would seem the organization would have a great deal of risk in terms of PR issues (fan taking her kids to game gets semi-permanent vision loss and team not willing to help her out). I suppose the flip side is that if they do compensate her, they open the floodgates to other potential litigants looking for a payday.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
One thing that the article did note was that the w...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 12:01:00
One thing that the article did note was that the woman was extremely unhappy with the way she was treated after the accident - according to the woman, the Mariners were fairly unapologetic about the incident and "were more interested in immediately clearing her off Safeco Field after she was struck than looking after her medical needs."
Posted By : Satchmo
I'm not sure I buy the assertion that Iverson is s...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 12:01:00
I'm not sure I buy the assertion that Iverson is still viewed as a "thug." Perhaps to non-NBA fans or casual observers, but all of this talk about his tattoos and image seems so five years ago to me. I never hear it talked about anymore.
As to his not being on the team, I thought it was a no-brainer (same with Baron Davis). No one is denying the effort he expends, or that he has achieved much given his slight stature, but first and foremost he is a "scorer" not a shooter. In fact, he has a downright horrible outside shot. When you shoot less than 30% from 3 you should not be jacking up 4+ attempts per game under any circumstances. Second, the Sixers offense is designed around getting him the ball and the ball being in his hands for significant periods of time. (Does anyone remember Webber complaining he doesn't get to pass enough? Why would that be? Because AI is trying to deflate the ball?) It is not that he would not accept a bench role because he's a bad guy or anything, I just don't think he would be the same player and might struggle to make the transition. Third, he is a woeful defender. One of the reasons the Sixers are so bad defensively is because he won't pressure the ball and instead lays off looking to gamble on steals.
If I'm fielding an international team I want shooters, defenders, and guys who are used to playing in a team offense. Iverson strikes out on all three.
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael, you argue that Iverson's unique baggage (...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 13:25:00
Michael, you argue that Iverson's unique baggage (however measured) is different than the others on the list with "issues" of some sort or another. I agree.
But if he is so unique, doesn't this cut in favor of a personal decision over IVERSON rather than some sort of broad sweeping culture bias explanation?
Also, (like anonymous in the above comment) I am not sure if Iverson is still as disliked as you perceive by the average fan, or even the older, more socially conservative ones. That Finals series against the Lakers did quite a bit for fans who did not know about the ferocity with which he plays the game every night. I wonder how many of those 161 cites are from the past 2-3 years? Or how many speak of Iverson is a positive light? Im not suggesting you actually do this! Just making a point.
Posted By : Josh
I disagree with your comment that it is all part o...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 13:49:00
I disagree with your comment that it is all part of the game. If a flagrant illegal act is delivered during a game and results in injury, some action should be taken. Young players see hits, such as Bertuzzi's and correlate this to meaning it is acceptable behavior during a game. I love the game of hockey, we have two sons that play. However, due to a broken back, one is out of the game because of a check from behind. As the bills roll in we are torn between the possibility of bankruptcy or pursuing legal action to recover the cost of ongoing medical treatment. We would not expect punitive damages but, we think the player and possibly the coaches are liable. On the other side and what makes this a difficult decision is the effects the suit would have on the game. What does everyone here think?
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael:
I agree with your assessment that this...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 14:07:00
Michael:
I agree with your assessment that this shold be about "talent" rather some other artificial reason(such as age).
An individual who reaches the age of majority should be able to make life decisions for themselves. The NBA is on weak ground when it attempts to take away "rights" others possess.
The same applies to the dress code the NBA has instituted.
The NBA should concentrate on judging "talent" and let individuals "of age" decide for themselves how they will dress and
where they will work (play).
The real issue here is one of civil liberties!!!
Posted By : Richard Mock
"During the professional era, it's been about havi...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 17:06:00
"During the professional era, it's been about having the most marketable team."
Bowen is more marketable than Iverson? News to me.
Seems like there's a contradiction here: how can a team that brought in role players specifically to address the deficiencies of previous teams (ie defense and outside shooting) also be accused of favouring more popular players at the expense of talent?
Posted By : ed küpfer
I'm having a hard time following the factual circu...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 17:08:00
I'm having a hard time following the factual circumstances based upon what's stated in the article. Wil says she was in the fourth row of the right field stands, in which case it would be totally unforeseeable for a thrown ball to enter the stands (but not a hit ball). But the article says fourth row of the right field line, and the right field line would not be the seats behind right field. When I read it, I assumed that she was in the fourth row somewhere behind first base or further on down the right field line, in which case it would be much more foreseeable for overthrown balls (throws to first, for example) to enter those front row seats.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
"Do you really need role players"? You mean guys ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 17:59:00
"Do you really need role players"? You mean guys who pass, play defense, set picks, rebound, take charges, etc.? No, why would a team need that? Let's just take the East and West All-Star teams. That's great team basketball.
Posted By : john
Let's everyone calm down over the "snub" of AI, OK...
Message posted on : 2006-03-03 - 20:05:00
Let's everyone calm down over the "snub" of AI, OK? Remember the '84 team when Charles Barkley was one of the last cuts off Bob Knight's Olympic team? (Does anyone remember whoelse was in the last cuts, and who was on the team--other than MJ, Mullin, and Ewing?) Or how about '88, when John Thompson only took one outside shooter to Seoul--Hersey Hawkins--only to lose him to injury very early on?
In other words, a coach has the right to choose players whom HE feels would fit his style. If he's smart, he can adjust his style to his players or the international rules. Don;t be surprised later on to see AI's name back on the squad; remember, it's 28 months about to Beijing.
Re: the '04 Olympic team . . . remember how many players backed out for any number of reasons (Kobe's legal problems; injuries to others; fears of terrorism--not unreasonable after 9/11/2001 plus some of the problems in Greece at the time; marriage in a couple of cases; "need to rest" in others). In other words, the team we thought would go was NOT the team which went to Athens; it was virtually a second- or third-choice team.
Posted By : Anonymous
How did I miss this post! Don't forget about Chap...
Message posted on : 2006-03-04 - 09:38:00
How did I miss this post! Don't forget about Chappaquiddick Kennedy either. Or DC's old mayor...
Politicians AND athletes AND movie stars get off WAY too easy.
I"m telling you. If athletes have to do random drug tests, and high schoolers have to take random drug tests... I see it only fair that ALL elected officials take drug tests, and have a background check. Then make that info public. I'd be interested to see the results.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Where are we going to get this FIBA coach? I'm fi...
Message posted on : 2006-03-04 - 10:32:00
Where are we going to get this FIBA coach? I'm firmly of the belief that if you have any coaching talent whatsoever, you should hire someone from your country to coach (like having only American coaches after Bora Milutinovic filled the gap for the US Men's soccer team). Are you going to send Rudy T or Stan Van Gundy to Europe to start learning the international game? Should the NBDL play by FIBA rules, and send one of them down there to coach?
Here's my question. We have a pretty good handful of almost-NBA quality players playing in Europe, who know the international game. Why not invite a few of them. At the very least, you could see if knowing that brand of basketball for a while is really that helpful, or if we just need a better constructed team.
Posted By : Taco John
Good Stuff. While I still think Iverson should no...
Message posted on : 2006-03-05 - 20:38:00
Good Stuff. While I still think Iverson should not be on the team, for reasons that are solely to do with basketball, I agree with pretty much everything here.
"The funny part about the NBA's brand of paternalism is that so much of it comes from outside. Sports talk radio honchos and sports columnists--not the most diverse group of people in the first place--seem to control the discourse where the NBA is concerned. And yes, they tend to be more paternalistic when it comes to NBA players than any other sport. And then, the NBA buckles worse than Frazier versus Foreman, instead of defending itself....". 100% spot on. It drives me nuts how much David Stern kowtows to these morons. Image and perception are much more important to him than reality, but as you said, what else is new?
"What I saw in the 2004 Olympics wasn't so much as a team of individuals as a really inexperienced team new to the FIBA game, overmatched by really experienced teams that had played together for a while and grew up with the FIBA game." Thank God. I thought I was the only person who saw this. But hey, why mention this when you have an excuse to bash young black people for their failings, attitudes and appearances? If that sounds cynical, it's because I am.
Posted By : Anonymous
Wait a minute. Is this alleged "sportswriter" Step...
Message posted on : 2006-03-06 - 09:54:00
Wait a minute. Is this alleged "sportswriter" Stephen A. Smith?
Posted By : Anonymous
In an interview on Sunday, Colangelo (sp) stated t...
Message posted on : 2006-03-06 - 18:02:00
In an interview on Sunday, Colangelo (sp) stated that it was because they were looking for a pass-first PG. That's not a direct quote, but a summary. There are 7 of the top 8 PPG players on the list so they were really looking for a more pure PG (but no Kidd?)
Posted By : Jeff
Speaking of marketability, Iverson's jersey is the...
Message posted on : 2006-03-06 - 22:39:00
Speaking of marketability, Iverson's jersey is the second best seller.
http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/nba_jersey_release_051215.html
Admittedly, jerseys aren't everything when it comes to quantifying marketability (to the extent you can even quantify it), but that leads me to think either:
(1) Iverson actually is marketable, but some individuals mistakenly believe he is not, which is much different from the argument made in the post.
or
(2) The so-called "snub" was not based on marketability and had more to do with basketball.
Posted By : Anonymous
We focus looking for negatives in athletes too muc...
Message posted on : 2006-03-06 - 23:39:00
We focus looking for negatives in athletes too much. Maybe athletes are expected to have this type of behavior. But in Congress, they are held to a higher standard, especially regarding character.
Posted By : tommie
The SI article is extremely detailed, going into e...
Message posted on : 2006-03-07 - 15:36:00
The SI article is extremely detailed, going into exactly which drugs Bonds too and when, and if the book is more of the same, the sheer amount of evidence is stunning.
The authors have also posted a list of their sources on SI, and wisely so, I might add. Annoucing the sources separates them from others who might just asy "Bonds was an obvious 'roider"
These aren't allegations - this is damning evidence, and I wonder how Barry will react to it.
Posted By : Satchmo
While I hope this will severely hinder his chances...
Message posted on : 2006-03-07 - 20:56:00
While I hope this will severely hinder his chances at the Hall, you still read about many writers who say they will vote for Palmiero (just maybe not on the first ballot). Now, there are certainly major differences between the two, but the fact remains that there is hard evidence that Raffy juiced. On the other hand, from what I gather the evidence against Bonds is still "he said, he said." Whether you believe Bonds's implicit assertion that there is a massive conspiracy against him is one thing, but it wouldn't surprise me to see HoF voters take cover in the fact that Bonds never tested positive and that all of the statements against him are from questionable sources. Big disclaimer: I assume the evidence against him will be based solely on the statements of Conte et al., but having obviously not read the book, I don't know for a fact that is it.
You also have the argument advanced by the likes of Jayson Stark that because we don't know everyone who used steroids we shouldn't hold it against anyone. Although he advanced that argument in support of Raffy, I don't see why it wouldn't apply in equal force to Bonds, even if everything in that book is true.
Posted By : RPS
Today, I argued with a couple of people who stated...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 01:04:00
Today, I argued with a couple of people who stated that the use of performance enhancing drugs in baseball does nothing to affect a player's statistics. To that assertion, I have to laugh.
Why are anabolic steriods and human growth hormone "performance enhancing" substances? Because they provide the human body with massive amounts of synthetic testosterone and anabolic hormones which: (1) rapidly increases protein assimilation and synthesis, resulting in easier, much faster growth of muscle tissue; (2) dramatically increases the body's ability to recover from training session to training session, resulting in the ability to train more intensely and more frequently; and (3) significantly reduce the risk of injuries to bones, joints, ligaments, etc., or vice versa, heal existing sports-related injuries faster (if the user is training and using the "juice" properly).
Now how can those factors improve a baseball player's statistics, particularly batting statistics? As for (1), more muscle mass equals increased strength and power, which equals more explosiveness and power in someone's swing (again, provided that he is training properly so as not become inflexible, for example, with the increased size).
With (2), and this may be the most important factor, the player gets to practice and train more. ALOT MORE, without getting tired, fatigued, etc.. More repetitions equals more time to perfect one's swing and technique, which equals more hits, more homeruns, and a better average. Compare this with the "natural" player, who can only take a limited number of swings a day before needing to stop and then rest and recover for the next workout. A "juiced up" player, especially one who is on a diet conducive to strength gain and muscle growth, can work out morning, afternoon, and night - considerably more than the "natural" - and then recover even faster than his counterpart to do it all over again.
As for (3), there are several steriods that have a reputation for rapidly healing bone-related injuries and preventing them. Deca-Durabolin, which Bonds allegedly used at some point, is one of them. The nagging injuries that the "natural" is likely to encounter over the course of his baseball career are nonexistent to the "juicer" in most cases. However, the performance drug-enhanced player is probably more likely to suffer muscle cramps or tears, but again, with the right kind of approach to his training, the risk of this is low.
The facts on performance enhancing drugs and the results they provide are easily researchable, and for anyone who has personal knowledge of athletes who have used them, you know about these things I have just described.
Posted By : Lance
Oh, and I almost forgot about the reason for the a...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 01:10:00
Oh, and I almost forgot about the reason for the above comment: Just as an athlete who is using performance enhancing drugs is not considered "natural," Barry Bonds' statistics are likewise "unnatural" provided that these allegations are true. Therefore, he should not be worthy of eligibility for the Hall of Fame in this reader's honest opinion.
Posted By : Lance
I've defended Bonds for a long time, under the ass...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 01:51:00
I've defended Bonds for a long time, under the assumption that whatever steroids he did take weren't that much more effective than the legal bodybuilders he and everyone else in the league uses, and that his use of illegal steroids was fairly limited. I'm going to wait and see how many of this book's allegations hold up under scrutiny, but I'm obviously going to have to re-think Bond's career.
Posted By : Adam
And your point, "Satchmo", is . . . ?
(Similar ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 02:54:00
And your point, "Satchmo", is . . . ?
(Similar to comparing what a mechanic at a Ford dealership makes to what the Ford CEO makes in a year and saying "That's a lot of jobs"; it's rocks and oranges.)
Anyway, this is another flawed way for the NCAA to keep track of things; like "graduation rates", neither seems to allow for leaving early for the pros or transferring (particularly due to coaches resigning, lack of playing time, etc.) when factoring how well a school does teaching/educating its student-athletes.
Posted By : Anonymous
So, the evidence in this book is damning?
...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 08:29:00
So, the evidence in this book is damning?
This book, by two authors who believed their BALCO coverage for the S.F. Chronicle would garner them a Pulitzer. (by the way, the Pulitzer committee refused to consider the series for a prize - could it be because they drew baseless inferences and conclusions based on scanty evidence?).
Is the evidence in the SI excerpts any more damning than LA Confidential, the Lance Armstrong expose? If not, then why isn't Armstrong, who tested positive for a cortoid at the Tour de France in 1999, being "thrown under the bus" as is Bonds?
Oh, I forgot, Armstrong is white.
And to say Bonds began this descent into steroids because of some maniacally jealous reaction to Mark McGwire - ahhh, and that, folks, is racism at its most subtle - and finest.
Posted By : D-Wil
D-wil Lance Armstrong is a tool. He left...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 08:58:00
D-wil Lance Armstrong is a tool. He left his wife once he got famous, and I definitely believe that he was blood-doping. If whatever International Cycling body had actually handled the testing right, instead of putting his name on it like they shouldn't have and testing it secretly years afterwards, we might have less an opinion of the man.
I can't really judge which man is worse, because obviously they're both monsters. But even if we can find racial motivation in the Barry-bashing, it still doesn't recuse him from the cheating and lying.
I do find the McGwire anecdote a little strange, but I'll have to read the book to see how they reached that conclusion - whether it was inference or a direct quote Barry made. They seem to suggest that it was a direct quote, but who knows?
And since we're talking about race and steroid use, I personally think the worst steroid user I've ever read about is Bill Romanowski. He DID get way too much leeway from the press and the fans, for everything he did, including steroids and assault.
I don't know if that's directly attributable to race so much as the absolute idiocy that exists in professional football, which turns a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia, but that's something we can definitely talk about. There's a lot wrong in our sporting world, and the existing racist tendancies obviously don't help things any.
Posted By : Satchmo
Once again, no one asks the obvious question: As ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 09:51:00
Once again, no one asks the obvious question: As much of a problem exists in the lack of non-white coaches, GM's, owners, etc. . . . just WHY are the NBA, NFL, D-1 college football, and D-1/D-1A college football so NOT "diverse" the other way? If one were to compare the makeup of teams vs. the makeup of the schools in entirety, it does make an interesting question . . . one that seems to be ignored when it is asked.
Posted By : Anonymous
I forgot to include D-1 college basketball as well...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 09:52:00
I forgot to include D-1 college basketball as well in my previous post.
Posted By : Anonymous
I just watched Lance Williams, one of the Bonds bo...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 10:26:00
I just watched Lance Williams, one of the Bonds book co-authors assert that Bonds' steroid use began in reaction to McGwire breaking the home run record. Williams further stated that, "Bonds transformed himself into a pure slugger" (perhaps that's why Bonds hits for average so well - and, in fact, won a batting title).
If the accusations made in the book were common knowledge, Bonds would have a perjury charge over his head - now.
Additionall, if these accusations were true, then the authors hid evidence from a federal investigation, and should themselves, along with Bonds, be jailed.
Posted By : D-Wil
"Is the evidence in the SI excerpts any more damni...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 11:01:00
"Is the evidence in the SI excerpts any more damning than LA Confidential, the Lance Armstrong expose? If not, then why isn't Armstrong, who tested positive for a cortoid at the Tour de France in 1999, being "thrown under the bus" as is Bonds?
Oh, I forgot, Armstrong is white."
I don't think "thrown under the bus" is accurate. Bonds is not being made a scapegoat here. McGwire, Sosa, and Palmiero all received an incredible amount of flak for their (alleged) steroid use. But since they are retired and have slunk into the shadows, while Bonds is still in the game (and is vehement in his denials), it is only natural that people will focus on him. There is also the fact that he is poised to make a run at a record once thought unbreakable (Aaron).
As for Bonds versus Armstrong, that's apples and oranges. Different people, different sports, different circumstances. I'm also willing to bet the fact that Bonds is a notorious ass (remember Sheffield recounting their interactions?) as opposed to Armstrong whose name is synonomous with fighting cancer might have something to do with it. That, or race. One or the other.
Posted By : RPS
I read this piece with interest, since it reminded...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 12:00:00
I read this piece with interest, since it reminded me an immigration case a few years back involving a professional hockey player named Bob Probert. Probert's expertise was that of an "enforcer," and INS would not give him a Visa to work in the United States. Probert and his team appealed to an INS administrative tribunal, where expert testimony on his "skills" was taken (ESPN analyst Darren Pang was one of the witnesses testifying as to his expertise and improtance). A visa was ultimately granted.
Posted By : Mark Conrad
No point, really, just that the NCAA is an absolut...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 12:31:00
No point, really, just that the NCAA is an absolute scam. I know that the compensation that is given to executives has nothing directly to do with the scholarships taken away from the schools.
But just like when a corporation's executives give themselves raises when the corporation is tanking, there's some degree of responsibility that is not being assessed here.
Posted By : Satchmo
Satchmo, we already know how he's going to react.....
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 17:20:00
Satchmo, we already know how he's going to react...he'll attack the media and whine about how everyone is against him (waaaahhhhhhh)
Posted By : CrazyRay
Satchmo - You state that "The authors have also po...
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 18:36:00
Satchmo - You state that "The authors have also posted a list of their sources on SI,". Please provide a link. I cannot seem to find it.
Posted By : Anonymous
I shoud have been more clear - in the article
Message posted on : 2006-03-08 - 20:28:00
I shoud have been more clear - in the article "The Documentation," the authors claim to have reviewed numerous legal records, interviews, tapes, etc.
In retrospect, I want to take a look at the book because they claim to reveal more sources in the book. I'd like to see direct quotes and names.
They say that "The names of many of our sources appear in the text or in the extensive chapter notes included in Game of Shadows. Some sources requested anonymity to avoid interfering with the federal BALCO investigation and a related grand jury probe that continued into '05. Some additional information about sources who requested anonymity appears in the chapter notes."
To what extent anonymity will cast doubt on their research I don't know, but I would hope that with what they claim to have, they don't obscure all their sources. It would clearly hurt their statements with all the scrutiny being placed upon them.
But it does appear that they did their research for this book. One does have to wonder how they obtained some of their research, especially the sealed grand jury testimonies and confidential memorandums.
Posted By : Satchmo
I've heard a lot of people say that the steroids B...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 00:08:00
I've heard a lot of people say that the steroids Bonds allegedly took were not banned by MLB. Is that true? If so, does that mean that he is not a cheater?
Posted By : mbpottz
Tim couch should go to the lions.
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 09:59:00
Tim couch should go to the lions.
Posted By : Anonymous
Another interesting athlete to compare Bonds to is...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 12:27:00
Another interesting athlete to compare Bonds to is Roger Clemens. Both has impressive careers until they reached their late thirties, but what they accomplished in their late 30's and early 40's is amazing. They are career years. That is unherd of in sports. And they did not just have both one great year. Should we look at Clemens? Or what should we look at?
Posted By : tommie
You might be interested to see what MLS fans think...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 13:33:00
You might be interested to see what MLS fans think here about this sale. Opinions vary widely:
http://www.soccerblogs.net/index.php/search/?query=red+bull
Posted By : Oscar M
Satchmo-
The Documentation is a pretty weak cit...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 17:07:00
Satchmo-
The Documentation is a pretty weak citation of sources. It consists of disputed statements made to a single federal agent, statements from an ex-girlfriend, and hearsay. The authors actually try to use Anderson's denial of giving drugs to Bonds as evidence that he did.The convuloted arguments offered in the section "Circumstantial Evidence" are embarassing. A close reading of The Documentation hurts the authors' credibility.
But that calendar is troublesome. If they are able to develop this better in the book, Mr. Bonds may be "convicted" even by my standards
Posted By : JPSobel
mbpottz-
MLB did not have a specific rule banni...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 17:14:00
mbpottz-
MLB did not have a specific rule banning the use of steroids and PEDs until September 2002. So, unless Mr. Bonds was juicing in 2003, which the book alleges, he was not in violation of MLB rules.
Further, if the cream and the clear were the only PEDs he used, Mr.Bonds did not break the law. These drugs were banned in the Steroid Control Act of 2004 which was signed in October 2004 and went into effect in early 2005.
Posted By : JPSobel
New York Red Bulls is actually kinda cool. They sh...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 19:14:00
New York Red Bulls is actually kinda cool. They should switch the order and stop trying to be so Euro
Posted By : Anonymous
I wasn't aware that following the same rules that ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-09 - 21:11:00
I wasn't aware that following the same rules that were established by another league is copyright infringement. Does this mean that a city league adjusting the size of a pitcher's mound to keep in line with a change in MLB regulations would be a violation as well?
Posted By : Adam
Adam: that's a good question, but my sense is that...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 00:12:00
Adam: that's a good question, but my sense is that the claims by the WAKA about their rules being copied do not appear credible. Typically, game rules are not protected by law, and I haven't yet seen a reason why a court would depart from that custom in this particular circumstance. And if I had to guess, and without any inside knowledge, I would suspect that this lawsuit is driven by some kind of personal rivalry/feud between the organizers of WAKA and those of DCKickball. But thankfully, that's the kind of lawsuit that courts tend to dismiss with great haste.
Posted By : Michael McCann
My thanks to those who have commented to this post...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 00:14:00
My thanks to those who have commented to this post. The comments are outstanding, and I hope people take the time to read them.
Posted By : Michael McCann
As a friendly clarification, you can't own a copyr...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 01:28:00
As a friendly clarification, you can't own a copyright in the mechanics of a game, but you can own a copyright in the original expression of these mechanics. Put another way, you are free to copy the method of play, but you need to express it in your own words (or in words in the public domain). Game mechanics are procedures or processes or systems, all of which are not covered by copyright. See 17 U.S.C. sec. 102(b). Confusion is caused by our use of the word "rules" to describe both the underlying mechanics of a game and the particular wording of these mechanics.
The protection for the wording of rules has limits, however. When there are only a limited number of ways to express a rule, which would seem to apply in this kickball case, others should be free to copy the rule's wording under copyright's "merger" doctrine.
Although I have not seen the complaint -- it is not available in Pacer -- WAKA's claim sounds very weak. It seems WAKA thinks it can monopolize a game mechanic or a short, one-sentence statement of a game mechanic. Absent a patent, the court should not let it do either.
Posted By : William Ford
I stated in an earlier post that the clear and the...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 06:51:00
I stated in an earlier post that the clear and the cream were not illegal until 2005. I need to correct this statement.
The clear is the designer steroid THG. It was banned by the Anabolic Steroid Act of 2004 which went into effect on 20 January 2005. The FDA had issued a statement declaring THG to be an unapproved new drug on 28 October 2003: an action which prohibited the manufacture, distribution, and marketing (but apparently not the use or possession) of the drug.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2003/
NEW00967.html
The cream is a designer cocktail of testosterone and epitestosterone; two
steroids which were illegal under the Controlled Substances Act dating back to at least 1990. Until reading the Washington Post article, I had been under the impression that the cream was just another variation of THG. Use of these steroids without a prescription would have been illegal in the time frame of interest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33774-2004Dec3.html
Posted By : JPSobel
JPSobel - you're right about The Documentation - t...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 13:24:00
JPSobel - you're right about The Documentation - the second time I read it, I realized how little they were actually saying.
The book really does need to give names and sources, otherwise readers will be forced to bundle the book with other Bonds accustations. They say they have hundreds of interviews with many different people, but we really need to know who those people were.
Posted By : Satchmo
The context is slightly different, but there's bee...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 13:50:00
The context is slightly different, but there's been a history of companies purchasing and/or sponsoring teams and attaching their names.
I'm more of a fan of women's basketball, so I'll point out the early AAU years (1926 and on) when companies sponsored teams as good advertising. Chicago had a Taylor Trunks team (luggage for Houdini), Tacoma had the Carston Packing Company's "Vagabonds," AAU Championships were won by the Sunoco Oilers, Dallas Golden Cylcones (sponsored by Employer's Casualty Insurance), the AETNA Crimson Tide won the NYC Championship in 1928, a black team - The Philly Tribunes barnstormed across the US in the 30's, and other teams with names like Dr. Swetts Rootbeer (Des Moines), Haines Hosiery (N.C), Dr. Pepper (Ark) and Cook's Goldblum (a brewery in Nashiville) flourished in the 40's and 50's.
On the men's side, wasn't it the Phillips 66ers?
I guess the danger is, what happens when your team loses...
Posted By : Anonymous
mbpottz...steroids are illegal, there's no such th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 16:43:00
mbpottz...steroids are illegal, there's no such thing as a "legal steroid". If he was caught with steroids or marijuana/etc. he would be in posession of drugs all the same.
Posted By : CrazyRay
Well, there are legal steroids - they're perscribe...
Message posted on : 2006-03-10 - 17:11:00
Well, there are legal steroids - they're perscribed by doctors.
However, there's no way Bonds would get a perscription for anything he allegedly took, especially things like Clomid and HGH.
Posted By : Satchmo
I believe that your data set is small, but I agree...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:13:00
I believe that your data set is small, but I agree that any way you slice it, age doesn't appear to have much relation to "getting into trouble" for an NBA player. It would be interesting to collect some other parameters such as in season vs off season, or playing status (injured, etc.) or even contract status, to see if there is a particularly vulnerable time for getting into trouble.
Posted By : Marco
Just out of curiousity--if you did a similar list ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:14:00
Just out of curiousity--if you did a similar list of NFL players, would O.J. Simpson's murder case list him as a player or as a member of the media? He had worked for a number of years with NBC Sports [on the NFL and Olympics] prior to the double murders, and been out of the NFL for about 13 years at the time.
Come to think of it--shouldn't Jayson Williams' arrest (that is the former Nets' forward) be on a list of media people arrested, as he was the studio analyst for NBC Sports at the time of his arrest?
Posted By : Melvin H.
Very interesting findings Professor McCann. Your l...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:15:00
Very interesting findings Professor McCann. Your last update is especially interesting, because the comparative data between arrested NBA players and all NBA players greatly discredits the NBA's paternalistic argument for an age floor. As a fellow Harvard Law grad, I'm happy to see this kind of scholarship from our alma mater.
Posted By : Stephen Prosser
There are other factors that should be taken in co...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:43:00
There are other factors that should be taken in consideration here, perhaps. The environment the players grew up in, for one. Kobe might end up standing out in this list not because he skipped college, but because he was raised in a well-to-do family in a list of people who had rough beginnings (note that I'm taking a guess here, I don't know enough about all the background of all the players listed).
Posted By : Cisco
Zach Randolph's arrest was not a DUI. It was for u...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:44:00
Zach Randolph's arrest was not a DUI. It was for underage drinking for drinking a beer 2 weeks before his 21st birthday.
LT
Posted By : Laurel
Laurel: Thanks for your response. However, accordi...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:50:00
Laurel: Thanks for your response. However, according to a December 2, 2003 story entitled "Blazers' Randolph Arrested for Driving Under the Influence of Intoxicants" on the Portland Oregonian's website, Zach Randolph was indeed arrested for DUI. Here is the link:
http://www.oregonlive.com/printer/printer.ssf?
/blazers/120203randolph.frame
Posted By : Michael McCann
Most of HS-only sample has probably not yet reache...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 15:52:00
Most of HS-only sample has probably not yet reached their 6th season in the league. They simply haven't had as much time as the rest of the league to get arrested.
Please analyze this data within birth year cohort and draft year cohort. To support your claims, one must show that secondary education is positively correlated with arrests within each birth year or draft year cohort. For example, within the 2003 draft class, is the number of years of college education positively or negatively correlated with being arrested?
My guess is that your data set will not provide the statistical power to make a valid comparison. I don't think there are enough data points from the HS-only set to run a meaningful analysis.
I would love to see survey data on the average unaided recall for each draft class over the past 20 years, and the average mpg, ppg, rpg, and pts/rbs per 48 min stats by education level for 1st round draft picks in the past 25 years. I bet we'd see that HS-only plays have a very wide distribution for these measurements, and lower averages, compared to players with some college experience.
My guess is that owners are tired of paying NBA salaries to people who have not developed a national repuation in the NCAA and are typically too raw to contribute in their first few years in the league. The league has probably decided that, statistically speaking, gambling on HS players in the draft does not pay off frequently enough to justify the increased costs required to market and develop them. This would be a perfectly reasonable business justification to change the CBA.
Posted By : Josh Loftus
I find this study very interesting. I run a fantas...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 16:09:00
I find this study very interesting. I run a fantasy sports web site ( www.fantasycriminal.com )that awards points when a member of your team gets arrested. I have over three years of NBA busts in my database. All the busts have a link to a legitimate news story ( that is one of the rules ). We have over 3000 busts so far. I may be able to help you with some of your research ...
Posted By : James Lanter
Incredibly fascinating read, and outstanding resea...
Message posted on : 2006-03-11 - 16:10:00
Incredibly fascinating read, and outstanding research. And not good news for David Stern!
Posted By : Anonymous
Checking other blogs for ideas and came across you...
Message posted on : 2006-03-12 - 16:47:00
Checking other blogs for ideas and came across yours. Nice job. If you get a chance stop by. Vietnam in Pictures ---Jack---
Posted By : Anonymous
In Argentina, the soccer federation statutes expre...
Message posted on : 2006-03-13 - 14:05:00
In Argentina, the soccer federation statutes expressly prohibits to name a team after private companies, but the clubs are non profit organizations, not franchises.
Posted By : Ariel Reck
A Google search (God I love the internet) - reveal...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 13:04:00
A Google search (God I love the internet) - reveals this speech by Dr. David Ridpath, Assistant Professor of Sports Admin at MSU. Interesting stuff.
As for a reason for the NCAA to keep its tax-exempt status, I'd like to take a stab at one.
As part of its tax-exempt status as a 501c3, a high degree of disclosure is required of the NCAA. They need to disclose all revenue, including sources and numbers, and all expenditures, including sources and numbers.
If you take away tax exempt status, doesn't the NCAA then have the power to run itself as any other corporation and only disclose as much as they need to for tax purposes?
In other words, part of being a 501c3 (theoretically) involves a high degree of transparency, one which does not occur to the same degree in for-profit organizations.
One could argue that taking away the tax-exempt status of NCAA would in fact be making problems worse.
While reading the 501c3 requirements makes it pretty clear that the NCAA does not operate in the spirit of a 501c3, is it possible that the NCAA would be worse if it were only subject to corporate standards?
Would a better solution be to reword the UBIT (unrelated business income tax) clause in the 501c3 law to force the NCAA into paying more taxes on sponsorships and TV deals?
What is the present state of UBIT and the NCAA?
Posted By : Satchmo
Satchmo,
It is true that non-profit organizatio...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 14:34:00
Satchmo,
It is true that non-profit organizations are required to disclose their financial statements, but the problem is that their 990's (the IRS form that they use) seperate everything into very broad categories - which leaves an incredible amount of wiggle-room for numbers fudging. The non-profit world is far behind corporate America, who have very high accounting standards thanks to the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.
There are a few arguments FOR the NCAA being allowed to keep their tax-exempt status.
1) The athletic activities do indeed help further the educational activities of their respective universities by bringing incredible amount of attention to successful programs. Without the NCAA, Miami would just be an ordinary private school in Florida and Gonzaga would be an obscure school in the Northwest. Admissions offices usually see a remarkable increase in applications following a strong postseason showing (thus increasing the selectivity and academic rigor of a university).
2) There is nothing wrong with a tax-exempt organization acting "corporate." Every single major non-profit that you've ever heard of acts "corporate", and the majority of them have very enviable compensation packages. After all, wouldn't you expect someone who runs a $500 million non-profit to be paid similarly to someone who runs a company of the same size in the private sector?
That's not to say that the NCAA is a saintly organization without its fault. Year in and year out, it ruthlessly exploits young men and women to generate billion dollar revenues.
The profit margin for most successful programs hovers between 50% to 70%, meaning that for every $1 of revenue they earn, they only have to pay out 50 to 70 cents in expensives. Even the most successful professional sports franchises operate on razor-thin margins that rarely eclipse 10%.
Posted By : jeffiepan
To attach on to jeffiepan's comments.. if the NCAA...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 15:06:00
To attach on to jeffiepan's comments.. if the NCAA does not keep it's tax-exempt status then the NCAA will instantly go into the red. The NCAA could fall apart and individual teams might need to fend for themselves.
Hasn't the NCAA already been accused of being a 'cartel' in Univ. Georgia and Univ. Oklahoma v. NCAA?
--
And the most ironic thing about all this is that the NCAA was originally established to preserve amateurism and specifically not for economic gain
Posted By : Ryguy
I doubt the NCAA would fall into any financial har...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 15:24:00
I doubt the NCAA would fall into any financial hardships (although I've never looked at their financial statements), but it's a relatively safe assumption considering their revenue stream.
Keep in mind that it differs from most traditional tax-exempt organizations in that the majority its revenue is business-generated (from TV contracts, apparel licensing, etc), and not from private donations.
Posted By : jeffiepan
The issue is not one of structure, it is one of co...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 15:39:00
The issue is not one of structure, it is one of connectedness. So long as the money generated by the NCAA involves an educational activity and the profits are disbursed to the 501c3 educational institutions that engage in the activity, it matters not the amount of property or the structure used to make it.
To impose the tax, Congress would be deciding whether NCAA sports is in fact an educational activity or whether the profits are being used for educational purposes. A easy but funny and unlikely way to avoid this is for the NCAA member schools to make sports the equivalent of art and give degrees.
Aside: If Congress decided to tax NCAA income, the players would not get it. The reduced revenue and profit would further justify the refusal to pay athletes their open market worth. To that end, Congress must say that the price ceiling imposed on student athlete workers violates antitrust law. Fortunately, that issue is at least going to the courts.
Posted By : SmittyBanton
Only 8 Years? How is that possible? He caused th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-14 - 19:44:00
Only 8 Years? How is that possible? He caused the death of a person. He should have known that whomever he drugged might forseeably have to drive later, right?
I think he should spend a few more years behind bars (something like 99).
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
To a previous discussion on the role of agents and...
Message posted on : 2006-03-15 - 09:04:00
To a previous discussion on the role of agents and whether they are "overpaid" (from profootballtalk.com):
VINCENT CHANGES POSITION ON AGENT FEES
Word out of Hawaii is that NFLPA president Troy Vincent has reversed course regarding the issue of reducing agent fees from three percent to two percent, and that Vincent is now opposed to the possible move.
As a result, the issue wasn't even put to a vote at a meeting of player representatives.
The issue had been a strong point of contention for agents, sparking a heated and lengthy debate during the February agent meeting in Indianapolis. In the end, Vincent explained to the player reps that he fully examined the issue, and that he agreed with concerns that an across-the-board cut in maximum agent fees would chase good agents out of the business.
We think it's the right call. The absence of guaranteed contracts makes the role of an NFL agent even more important than in other sports, and the annual frenzy of free agency and restructured contracts makes it even more important that good, competent agents be available to assist players.
Of course, not all of the agents are good and/or competent, but the percentage of bad ones would have increased significantly if the cap on what agents can earn had been pushed lower and the good ones had pursued other ways to get paid for their time and effort.
Posted By : john
I think that penalizing the coaches is entirely ap...
Message posted on : 2006-03-15 - 13:25:00
I think that penalizing the coaches is entirely appropriate. Why should a coach get off scott-free for any wrong doings while leaving the school in shambles (ex. Steve Fisher and Michigan)?
Posted By : Kirk LeCureux
This story just amazes me. I wish my dad would ha...
Message posted on : 2006-03-15 - 15:25:00
This story just amazes me. I wish my dad would have doped up my opponents or even some of my teammates; that way I could have started.
Posted By : MoneyMouth
The Ambassadors complaint will be dismissed at the...
Message posted on : 2006-03-15 - 16:17:00
The Ambassadors complaint will be dismissed at the summary judgment stage. "Competition for the contract" is the exact right argument. These types of clauses are entirely reasonable, and are very common -- the circus, Stars on Ice, WWE, etc. These businesses have a legitimate concern about having a competing event at the same arean around the same time. Is 8 weeks before and 6 weeks after unreasonable? I don't think so, but clearly some restrictive period is acceptable (as the Ambassadors appear to conceded). And again, nothing prevents the Ambassadors from outbiding the Globetrotters and getting an exclusive window for themselves.
Posted By : john
Makes me glad to be a baseball (not football) agen...
Message posted on : 2006-03-16 - 11:38:00
Makes me glad to be a baseball (not football) agent. We're the good guys. By the way and fyi, Dunn recently (within the last couple years, I believe) opened up a baseball operation. Even though they are out in Cali, they seem to have taken an interest in New England players. I go up against them more and more these days.
Posted By : Joe Rosen
Good idea. Is it possible to get a copy of the pro...
Message posted on : 2006-03-18 - 10:06:00
Good idea. Is it possible to get a copy of the proceedings?
Have a good time. Thank you.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard: thanks for the note. The symposium went ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-19 - 01:49:00
Richard: thanks for the note. The symposium went very well, and I am happy to have been a part of it. I will check to see if and when a transcript will be made available.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I wish some of the players my Knicks acquired
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 12:38:00
I wish some of the players my Knicks acquired would have had poison pills in their contracts, such as the following:
Steve Francis - "must be most selfish shoot-first undersized guard on team or else contract is voided and player becomes unrestricted free agent."
Penny Hardaway - "must be most oft-injured shooting guard past his prime who still somehow collects 7 figure paychecks despite being on inactive list of roster."
Jerome James - "must be most overweight, underachieving center on team or else poison pill contract terminates contract."
And thanks to Stephon Marbury, Allan Houston, and Eddy Curry - the Knicks would be able to clear about $100 million worth of contracts off their books.
Posted By : jeffiepan
Michael,
As usual, great post. I know you'...
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 14:20:00
Michael,
As usual, great post. I know you're a big Boston fan, but I can't feel sorry for the guy here. Everyone knows that oral promises are forgotten and, practically speaking, unenforceable. He has an agent, and if being in Boston was part of the deal (and in fact why he took a "discount"), then he should have had a "no trade" clause, which is not at all uncommon these days. Maybe he should try and recoup some of the 3-5% commission he paid to his agent! :)
Posted By : Rick Karcher
The Red Sox do not give no-trade clauses in any of...
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 14:45:00
The Red Sox do not give no-trade clauses in any of their contracts.
Plus, Arroyo was told that "there was no deal in the works", not that he wouldn't eventually be traded.
Posted By : Ryan
In lieu of a no-trade clause, he (more likely the ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 16:46:00
In lieu of a no-trade clause, he (more likely the agent) also could have requested a salary hike if he was dealt. Thus, the Sox would benefit from the home town discount, but if he was traded, he could earn what he rightly "deserved."
Posted By : irishkeough
Good story here. I think the two old GMs didn't ha...
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 17:46:00
Good story here. I think the two old GMs didn't have anything on the table, but Theo did. I think this is just an example of how teams will trade anyone, no matter your loyalties and why we'll probably see less and less no-trade clauses in the future.
Posted By : Ryguy
That is the nature of the beast, in regard to the ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-20 - 21:31:00
That is the nature of the beast, in regard to the economic differences of the two leagues. Can you imagine the NBA, if teams were did not have to guarentee contracts. I can only imagine how many NBA superstars who received the maximum contract from their respective teams, would be cut in the first two years of their respective contracts.
Posted By : Anonymous
I know it is slightly off the subject of the origi...
Message posted on : 2006-03-21 - 12:44:00
I know it is slightly off the subject of the original post, but . . . Food for thought:
Maybe the problems with the NCAA lie in all of the rules. Look at your by-law number -- "14.5.5.2.10"!?!?
How is a coach, athletic director, compliance officer, etc. supposed to remember what is allowed and what is not when it takes FOUR sub-subsections (or whatever one wants to call them) to enumerate the rule?
It reminds me of the time a Colorado College hockey coach tried to recruit a goaltender here and was in breach of NCAA rules; if I remember right, the section quoted had SEVEN sub-subsections, plus two letter sub-sections! (I think it was something like "Rule 1.2.2.(a).3.2.4(c).1", . . . or something like that.)
Methinks it may be time to rewrite all of the rules so that Rule #1: "K.I.S.S." applies!
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
What if girls have to make choices between ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-21 - 14:26:00
What if girls have to make choices between sports that boys don't have to make?
Posted By : Milbarge
Poor Bronson. Or not. Life is tough. It still amaz...
Message posted on : 2006-03-21 - 17:08:00
Poor Bronson. Or not. Life is tough. It still amazes me how often ballplayers whine about this stuff. Until the day we institute total free agency, like most non-athlete professionals have, this is one of the occupational hazards of playing professional sports.
Damon is an idiot if he really believes Arroyo deserves to become a free agent because of this alleged verbal promise.
Posted By : some guy
I would love to see the Nationals let Soriano lang...
Message posted on : 2006-03-21 - 17:10:00
I would love to see the Nationals let Soriano languish on the suspended list indefinitely. While you can criticize Bowden all you want (and he deserves plenty of criticism for his inane moves with the Reds), Soriano is under contract and is required to do what all other employees in this country who are under contract must do: obey the boss. It's about time someone take a hard line against these primma donnas.
Posted By : some guy
I'm a Bronson fan. I will miss him as a Sox fan. ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-21 - 18:55:00
I'm a Bronson fan. I will miss him as a Sox fan. The decision he made did not work out as he had hoped, but that is all this is. He knew that there was a chance of this happening. In fact, by agreeing to the lower amount, he arguably increased the likelihood of this happening. It is unfortunate that his decision and the information made available to him (especially the advice of his agent) has become so public. At the end of the day, it's all a matter of leverage. One could argue that he should have negotiated the lower salary in exchange for some protection against a trade, but its highly unlikely the Sox would have agreed to that when they didn't have to. As with every sports contract (and any contract for that matter) the parties' business leverage has the greatest influence in dictating the terms.
Posted By : Chris Callanan
He took a discount in his mind, but the discount m...
Message posted on : 2006-03-22 - 10:54:00
He took a discount in his mind, but the discount might also be related to the fact that Boston was really only buying out his arbitration years. And it's not like it was a terrible deal for Bronson. No, he won;t get to go to arbitration, but then he does now have a guaranteed multi-year contract.
Posted By : john
As a die-hard Reds fan, I hope Bronson will be abl...
Message posted on : 2006-03-22 - 11:09:00
As a die-hard Reds fan, I hope Bronson will be able to focus and committ to his new team although he feels it is unjust to be there. Hopefully any angry will be directed towards Boston, perferably when we play them in interleague.
Posted By : Adam
The real reason this was a bad trade is that Brad ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-22 - 13:19:00
The real reason this was a bad trade is that Brad Wilkerson was a great team guy, and now no matter what the outcome is the Nationals are stuck with a clubhouse cancer with zero trade value because he is a free agent after this year.
Posted By : Robby
I sympathize with Soriano somewhat. Any arbitrati...
Message posted on : 2006-03-22 - 14:00:00
I sympathize with Soriano somewhat. Any arbitration guy (even a well compensated one like him) has no choice at all in where he plays. Soriano didn't choose to go to a team with an established 2B. Once he's a free agent, different story - you can essentially choose where you play each year if you sign one-year deals, or sacrifice some of that choice for greater security with a long-term contract.
The real reason Soriano doesn't want to switch is a purely economic. As a free agent next winter, he'll command considerably more as one of the best 2Bs rather than a decent but unspectacular LF. Still, his best option right now is to suck it up and play LF.
Ken
Posted By : Anonymous
"anonymous" called him "one of the best 2Bs" -- wi...
Message posted on : 2006-03-22 - 17:22:00
"anonymous" called him "one of the best 2Bs" -- with a bat in his hand, sure. But he's a TERRIBLE fielding second baseman, and the next team, or the team after that, SURELY will want to move him down the defensive spectrum, maybe even to first base. Soriano's agent is not doing him any favors if he is not telling him to run out to left field.
Posted By : Marc
I agree that he's atrocious defensively - the new ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 07:09:00
I agree that he's atrocious defensively - the new Fielding Bible makes a pretty convincing case - but I'd wager there are teams willing to overlook that to put in a power bat in a traditionally weak offensive spot (even if his offense is overrated bc of a relatively low OBP and inlflated slugging stats by his home park). I just hope it's not my team.
Ken
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
Interesting issue. As you know, I...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 08:05:00
Michael,
Interesting issue. As you know, I'm very "pro-player," but I think this one is a stretch. Here's my 2 cents:
First, I don't see this as a disciplinary issue. If a player refuses to play, the club has the right to refuse to pay the player (and most arbitrators would rule in favor of the club here). This has to be the right answer, because there would be no limit to the grievances filed by players. For example, a player could say that when the team decides to bat him sixth instead of third, it reduces his market value because he can't drive in as many runs in that slot, and that he had an expectation of batting third when he signed. A pitcher could argue that a team's decision to make him a reliever makes him less valuable than a starter. Or what if a team decides to platoon two players at first and DH throughout the season?
Also, at this point, it's pure speculation whether playing outfield instead of second base is even going to reduce his market value in the future at free agency. His agent can argue that he's a more versatile player if he can play multiple positions well. More to the point, even if he is right that it reduces his value when he becomes a free agent, he can still find a team that wants him as a second baseman.
Finally, I'm not sure whether a player can even condition his contract on playing a certain position. The CBA, Major League Rules, and uniform player contract place certain limitations on the ability of players and teams to get creative. My hunch is that it is not permissible.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
"Soriano is under contract and is required to do w...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 11:46:00
"Soriano is under contract and is required to do what all other employees in this country who are under contract must do: obey the boss. It's about time someone take a hard line against these primma donnas."
I beg to differ. Efficient breach is where it is at. Soriano is well aware of the consequences of refusing to fulfill the obligations of his contract and if he feels the benefits outweigh the costs, then he was well within his rights to refuse to play. He eventually changed his mind, but that was his decision to make.
Posted By : RPS
I agree with your and Rick's analysis as far as th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 13:27:00
I agree with your and Rick's analysis as far as they go, but you don't go far enough.
The real issue here wasn't Washington's threat to suspend him without pay; I don't see how they could possibly lose on that point. Soriano wasn't merely sulking; he refused to show up at all. I can't see that Soriano's motive for not showing up matters.
The real issue here was Washington's threat that they would place him on the disqualified list, that this would prevent him from accruing service time, and thus that he'd never become a free agent and would always remain Washington's property.
Generally speaking, a disciplinary suspension does not cost a MLB player service time, but generally speaking, disciplinary suspensions are for less serious matters than failing to show up for work.
Posted By : David Nieporent
So to hold! This site is very good. I thought that...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 18:28:00
So to hold! This site is very good. I thought that few things can impress me a lot!
e-harmoney
Posted By : Anonymous
The bottom line is the Nationals made a bad trade....
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 18:57:00
The bottom line is the Nationals made a bad trade. They should have not made this trade not knowing if Soriano would move to the outfield. It has been widely known throughout baseball before this that Soriano has said publicaly that he did not want to play outfield.
So if the Red Sox asked Manny or Mike Lowell to pitch or catch, they would have, or if the Astros asked Bagwell to catch, they would have to or you can threten not to pay them. There may be bad faith motives here to get rid of salary, however, in essence it is the same thing. Maybe if they offered Soriano more money he could do it, since outfielders make more than 2bs anyway.
I take the players side on this one, even though a lot of times I think they are being greedy. Maybe Jim Bowded should be fired for making this stupid trade. Dont take the player if he doesnt want to play there!!!
Posted By : tommie
These type of things happen when you deal with a f...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 19:08:00
These type of things happen when you deal with a franchise like the Red Sox. Typical Boston. Maybe he will go on to win a few Cy Youngs like some other pitcher who they let go in the past. At least it happened at the same time the Patriots let their Hall of Fame hero kicker go to a hated rival.
On the flipside is this like a reverse Carlos Boozer situation?
But it is a business and in the business world in America you always do whats best for our business, however you just should not include bad faith.
Other franchises who did similar things did not say the same things to present bad faith.
Posted By : tommie
What about the stupid decisions schools make in re...
Message posted on : 2006-03-23 - 19:12:00
What about the stupid decisions schools make in regards to this rule that ruines several universities. The Providence College Friars played big east baseball and had to get rid of that team for this stupid rule. And they won the big east their last year in existence. I cannot believe you can get rid of the greatest sport like baseball over this stupid rule. We are talking baseball here. Our country has lost total respect for baseball between this and the Olympics and the representation and management of the World Baseball Classic.
Posted By : tommie
I saw the photo before I read the article and I th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 01:14:00
I saw the photo before I read the article and I thought the red hat was just an alternate color scheme for a Yankees hat. It even took me two looks to notice the slight change in angle of the middle horizontal bar that is the only difference (other than color) between the two logos.
Posted By : Adam
Could it be that the suit is designed to expose th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 08:43:00
Could it be that the suit is designed to expose the leaker? The law was broken in leaking the grand jury testimony. If the authors refuse to reveal their source, and they be sent to jail for contempt of court?
Posted By : David
Michael,
Interestingly, the California Supr...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 09:25:00
Michael,
Interestingly, the California Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment is not a defense to an unfair competition claim when the defendant has published statements that constitute "commercial speech," and the Cal. Sup. Ct. has articulated a 3-part test to determine what constitutes commercial speech (and Bonds has a good argument that all 3 parts have been met here). Thus, I think Bonds asserted the proper claim because he doesn't have to prove falsity and that the authors published the statements with reckless disregard for their truth or falsity (as he would be required to do in a libel suit).
Posted By : Rick Karcher
I have not read the book, and have not decided if ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 09:53:00
I have not read the book, and have not decided if I will. It seems by reading the excerpt in sports illustrated and listening to people talk about it in the media for weeks It is the same thing people already know, just more in depth and detailed. For instance, People heard Bonds and Giambi took steroids, this just adds who gave it to them, what they took, and how much they took. We all know the basis of the story and none of the information in the book seems like it should be shocking to anyone.
Posted By : tommie
Outside of the cease and desist order, what other ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 12:44:00
Outside of the cease and desist order, what other legal punishments could potentially the owner of Rebel LLC face?
Posted By : Anonymous
I may be wrong, but what the California Supreme Co...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 14:31:00
I may be wrong, but what the California Supreme Court considers commercial speech is relevant, but not dispositive. I say this because lower state courts need to go with this definition for the time being, but ultimately, the definition of the meaning of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is something which is within the province of the federal courts.
That said, I don't think that this book is commerical speech even within the Nike v. Kasky decision to which I'm assuming rick refers. Both the California and U.S. Supreme Courts define "commericial speech" as "speech which proposes a transaction." (See page 14 of the Nike slip opinion which cites the Central Hudson opinion of the U.S. Supreme Court). In my view, neither this book nor the underlying Chronicle pieces propose a transaction. As the Nike court pointed out, one can go beyond commercial motivation and look to see whether there are product references or whether a communication is formatted as an advertisement to see, whether as a whole, speech is commercial. That still doesn't get you to commercial speech here.
My 0.02.
Posted By : JC
Tommie, you might be correct, except that whoever ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 14:46:00
Tommie, you might be correct, except that whoever leaked grand jury materials could potentially be in a great deal of trouble. For instance, would it be shocking if someone in the prosecutor's office caused these materials to be leaked in an attempt to create leverage with other witnesses?
Posted By : Anonymous
JC,
The California Supreme Court's 3-part t...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 17:53:00
JC,
The California Supreme Court's 3-part test is pretty broad as I read it. I see your point, but I think the authors of this book clearly have commercial motivation. They're selling this book for one single reason: $$. How can selling a product to the public, heavily advertising it, and making lots of money off it, not be commercial? I don't see a meaningful distinction between this situation and speech that "proposes a transaction".
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Rick-
It is admittedly a tough distinction to e...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 18:02:00
Rick-
It is admittedly a tough distinction to explain because almost everybody who publishes has a commercial purpose. The New York Times is in the business of making $$$ plain and simply. Indeed, I posted on another site that the Federalist Papers were published as op-eds in a newspaper which cost readers to buy just like today's do. Papers sell stories about NSA spying, for instance, not only as a public service, but because it sells papers. So the question is not the pecuniary motivation of the publisher, but the content of the message itself.
Speech which proposes a commercial transaction is, to put it bluntly, advertising. If you purchase space in a newspaper or on TV to promote a product - "Miller is less filling than Bud"- such speech is not given the same protection as journalism, advocacy, or other speech. If Miller was indeed more filling than Bud, the idea is Bud should be able to sue Miller for false advertising without having to get into issues of whether Miller was reckless in putting out such a false statement.
For the record, the SF Superior Judge just denied Bonds' request for a temporary order and has cited First Amendment concerns in doing so.
Posted By : JC
Yes anonymous and it would not surprise me if some...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 19:13:00
Yes anonymous and it would not surprise me if something corrupt happened. Maybe money exchanged hands somewhere for this info?
It is a good possibility. This was a pretty major leak.
Posted By : tommie
To clarify my other post, maybe that was one of th...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 19:19:00
To clarify my other post, maybe that was one of the reasons there was no libel suit as well. It may not be worth it to spend all that money on a lawsuit. I, as most people in the public, already knew the basis for their story. Our opinions probably did not change. This information had already been around. Maybe his lawyers thought the judge would determine people already had their minds made up about Barry Bonds. Even people voting for the Hall of Fame. How could this damage his career substantially more. I think his career was already substantially damaged and it is not like releasing this information will make Bonds lose a substantial amount of money worth suing for. He was damaged goods before the book came out.
Posted By : tommie
Anonymous: Rebel Forces might have to disgorge pro...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 20:31:00
Anonymous: Rebel Forces might have to disgorge profits or otherwise compensate the Yankees if found to have infringed on the Yankees' trademark. But I suspect the Yankees are most interested in stopping the business rather than receiving any possible damages from past infringement. In theory, the FTC and relevant state attorneys could also threaten action if they felt consumers were being duped by Rebel Forces, and under certain state consumer laws, the Yankees may also have recourse. But I don't think Rebel Forces likely faces any sanction other than not being allowed to continue to sell YH paraphernalia. And although Adam believes the logos are similar, and others might feel similarly, I believe the TTAB will find them sufficiently distinct for purposes of consumer identification.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Great comments, my thanks to all of you for respon...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 20:42:00
Great comments, my thanks to all of you for responding so thoughtfully.
David, I agree, the suit may be in part designed to expose the leaker, as Bonds undoubtedly has an ax to grind with that person(s). Persons have certainly sued for less meritorious reasons, and particularly since Bonds likely has a similar ax to grind against Fainaru-Wada and Williams, this lawsuit may serve multiple purposes. As they say, “V� is for Vendetta!
Rick and JC: Both of your analyses of how the First Amendment relates to this unfair competition claim are extremely interesting. It seems as if there is significant ambiguity in California law on both application of this statute and related defenses. Aside from the sports implications, it will be interesting to see how this lawsuit might create, for lack of a better expression, "new law" in California.
Tommie: I see your point about Bonds maybe not feeling like a libel claim is worth it, but I just think that if someone writes a book of lies about you and that book threatens to destroy whatever reputation you have left, your reaction will be to sue them for libel, particularly if you are as wealthy as Bonds and can afford legal teams to represent your claims. The fact that Bonds hasn't done so seems at least suggestive of whether we should believe the book.
Posted By : Michael McCann
The first time i saw this logo was on a hat worn b...
Message posted on : 2006-03-24 - 21:39:00
The first time i saw this logo was on a hat worn by Curt Shilling. I saw it and immediately did not know what it was, it certainly looked like a Yankee hat, however anybody knows he would not wear a Yankee hat. From a distance or seeing someone wearing it on TV it definately looks like a Yankee hat. Maybe there is a problem with the law because they use the same design in lettering as the Yankees do.
Posted By : tommie
I'm wondering if Apple's lawsuits against rumor si...
Message posted on : 2006-03-25 - 12:20:00
I'm wondering if Apple's lawsuits against rumor sites last year have any relevance.
If I recall correctly, Apple successfully argued that because the information posted were trade secrets marked for internal use only, and could only be leaked by Apple employees under non-disclosure agreements, publishing the information was not protected by the First Amendment.
The same logic would apply here, except it's not illegal for grand jury witnesses to repeat their own testimonies.
Posted By : spinachdip
Prof. McCann
I agree that this is absurd, espe...
Message posted on : 2006-03-25 - 16:40:00
Prof. McCann
I agree that this is absurd, especially considering the amount of revenue the Yankees bring in already. However,new era has many,many assorted color patterns for the Yankees, even pink and green. Additionally, I seem to remember the Yankee Hater hats having different color schemes. How do you think that may effect the case?
Posted By : Derek Aswell
I don't see how the Yankees can win this case - wh...
Message posted on : 2006-03-25 - 20:30:00
I don't see how the Yankees can win this case - while the hat certainly parodies the Yankees logo with the font and placement of the letters, the letters are in fact different (YN, YH).
If the Yankees were to win the case, wouldn't teams with similar logos to other teams (for example the University of Alabama Crimson Tide and the Atlanta Braves) have to settle their logo issues as well?
The Crimson/Braves logo is much more similar than the YH/Yankees logo, in my opinion. Even though the YH logo is derived from the Yankees logo, it's not as if he is selling the hats by pretending they are in fact authentic Yankees gear.
For instance, someone who sold false Apple products by flipping the Apple logo would get in trouble. Would someone who hated Apple and sold anti-Apple gear (that Apple also sells, i.e. mp3 cases or something like that) with a backwards logo get in trouble? Is that a stickier issue if the letters are not as obvious?
Posted By : Satchmo
It is funny how Bonds' lawsuit is based on an "unf...
Message posted on : 2006-03-25 - 20:57:00
It is funny how Bonds' lawsuit is based on an "unfair competition" violation. Quite ironic.
Posted By : Krikor Meshefejian
Tommie---you forgot to add two words: "are forced...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 10:23:00
Tommie---you forgot to add two words: "are forced", as in: What about the stupid decisions schools ARE FORCED to make in regards to this rule . . ."?
And it ain't just at Providence: Here at Colorado College, men's baseball and golf were dropped years ago . . . for women's softball and golf! Southern Colorado in Pueblo (now CSU-Pueblo) had a nationally-ranked wrestling program dropped, in direct part because of Title IX.
OK, that was a little off the original post; this case in Michigan should have been tossed out years ago for precisely the reasons shown in the Virginia story. Merely because girls' b-ball was played in the fall while boys' b-ball was in the winter should NEVER have been a basis for a Title IX suit; if anything, that would fly in the face of common sense, since it would seem that women's college coaches would have more chances to see recruits play in the college off-season, than
during the college season.
In short: WHEN a season for a sport is played should NEVER be grounds for a Title IX lawsuit; this is another good reason for a more thorough review or outright repeal of Title IX, or some kind of exemption for athletics from Title IX.
(I'm waiting to see the lawsuit from any college in D-1 asking why do boys have 13 scholarships while girls still can have 15. Takers?)
Posted By : Anonymous
Do you necessarily agree with how U.S.News rank la...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 10:43:00
Do you necessarily agree with how U.S.News rank law schools, and do you feel that is somewhat a fair, and adequate measure of a law school ability or "grade"?
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous,
The short answer is no, of cour...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 11:04:00
Anonymous,
The short answer is no, of course not. A full explanation of the flaws of the ranking system would take many pages. The US News ranking system does paint some broad brush differences: For example, there is certainly a difference in the post-J.D. fortunes of students from top - 5 schools and those from bottom - 5 schools (at least for the first 1-5 years after graduation). Whether you actually get a better education at a top 5 school is an open issue. But you certainly do have more job prospects. Is there really a difference between school #89 and school #91? Not a hair.
My post was by no means meant to endorse the rankings; in fact, if college sports performance does have any impact, that would seem to discredit the value of the rankings. But while US News is imperfect, it is, in my opinion, silly to ignore that it has meaning (in that it affects choices made).
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I don't like the Yankees, but the color scheme of ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 11:20:00
I don't like the Yankees, but the color scheme of the Yankee Haters hats alone will not suffice to differentiate it from the Yankee logo itself for trademark purposes.
As Derek said, even a casual walk through a sporting goods store reveals a number of bizarre color schemes with the Yankee logo (including pink and green).
It's easy to see distinctions between the logos when you know in advance that one is a Yankee Hater logo, but if you've never heard of the Yankee Haters and see the logos, you'd have to look very carefully to see the difference. The H is cleverly stylized to approximate the N in the real logo.
The logos themselves are sufficiently similar to cause confusion, as is evidenced even by the comments posted on this blog, which probably includes a few more discerning eyes than exist in the general public.
Admittedly the Yanks may have watered down the blue and white Yankee colors by allowing alternative schemes, but those alternative schemes have trademark protection too, when associated with the Yankee logo.
The Yankee Haters can take a "parody" angle to avoid infringement. The problem is that it isn't obviously a parody. It doesn't say "Yankee Haters" under the logo as a giveaway. An average consumer could easily pick up this hat thinking it is a Yankee hat with an alternative scheme, and unwittingly represent himself as a Yankee Hater.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Presumably Bonds' attorneys will take the "unfair"...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 11:35:00
Presumably Bonds' attorneys will take the "unfair" angle under the unfair competition law, and not the fraudulent angle. I imagine fraud (or deception) would be as hard, or harder, to prove than the libel claim.
I'm not a California lawyer, but the unfair practice still has to relate to "competition," does it not? Or at least commerce. Who is the competition here? Bonds? Bonds is not an author (yet).
How has commerce been impeded? Which market would the Act be protecting here?
I imagine the Act is designed to protect the consumer from predatory business practices and other activities that approach, but do not quite reach, the level of an antitrust violation.
It seems to me the book actually fosters competition, in that it is now more likely that Bonds will write (or someone will write on his behalf) a book contradicting the hundreds of interviews in the Game of Shadows.
I doubt the Act exists to protect the sensitive ears of a public who will snatch up the latest gossip on drugs in sports. Nor do I think the Act is designed to step in and afford protection to someone who feels libeled but cannot prove a libel claim.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
This is an interesting topic Geoffrey. I wanted t...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 11:56:00
This is an interesting topic Geoffrey. I wanted to comment on the reputation scores from lawyers (as opposed to the academics).
As a former hiring attorney at a big firm, we did lots of research on law schools as part of our evaluation of potential lawyers. U.S. News was part of that evaluation. Although we recognized its limitations, it was a very accessible source. To eliminate some of its problems, I used to subtract some of the factors like library volumes, student-faculty ratios, etc. and recalculate the rankings. Obviously inherent problems remained with the rankings, so we'd use other sources too.
Anyway, that being said, candidates ultimately interviewed with 10+ people on a callback, and undoubtedly the ratings given by the interviewers were influenced by any number of subjective factors, including their feelings about the school.
An interviewer unfamiliar with a particular school may have subjective positive (or negative) feelings about a school based on any number of things, including spunky (or sloppy) play in the NCAA tournament. An interviewer in an Orlando firm most likely has a strong feeling about whether Florida or FSU is a better law school, and not entirely based on academic criteria.
Which has a better law school, UConn or Villanova? I don't know. But Villanova had a lot more energy on the court. :)
I don't believe any interviewer would do this consciously, but everyone has his biases. (Slightly off point anecdote: We called back a UVA law student for an interview, and one of the interviewers -- a Yale undergrad and law school graduate, and senior partner -- said "I liked him, but he went to a state school...is that a problem?" I laughed...to myself.)
I'm sure some of those same lawyers vote in the U.S. News survey. If it happens in interviews, where the interviewer has a stake in the potential harm caused by a subjective bias, it seems likely to carry over.
It might be difficult to measure this effect, since movement in the U.S. News reputation scores could be based on all sorts of changes at the law schools themselves. However, putting on my "Freakonomics" hat -- usually not worn by law professors -- there may be a way to empirically measure this effect by looking at historic shifts in reputation scores and evaluating whether more significant shifts occur following an exceptionally good (or bad) performance in the NCAAs.
I suspect the overall shifts in reputation scores would be too small to reach any conclusions; but it would be fun to look. Unfortunately I think historical U.S. News data might be hard to come by. (I wish I had saved my spreadsheets from the law firm days!)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
The bottom line is we all know Bonds did it. Even ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 11:56:00
The bottom line is we all know Bonds did it. Even though he never tested positive, we know he did it. This suit is just a stab to weaken the credibility of the writers. It also takes some of the focus off of the details of the book which Bonds wants. Bonds s just trying to trap the public (particulary those of average intellect about law ,who do not understand what the lawsuit is about) into believing since he is suing he must not have done it. I think it is more to have a psychlogical affect on the general public and shift focus.
Because if he stands still and does absolutely nothing, it is much easier for your everyday American to paint the picture or connect the dots.
Posted By : tommie
I believe Barry Bonds should walk away from the ga...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 15:38:00
I believe Barry Bonds should walk away from the game right now. If he doesn't, he's going to drag baseball down with him. If he eclipses Hank Aaron's record of 755 HR's, MLB will be forced to open an investigation about his possible steroid use. This would hurt the game tremendously and MLB wouldn't be able to stop there, it'd have to investigate all other current possible users further. My advice to Bonds is to retire now so that Bud Selig won't be able to investigate him and to prevent further controversy about the integrity of the game.
Posted By : Steve
I think that there are two ways to look at this. ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 17:01:00
I think that there are two ways to look at this. First, taking steriods doesn't make someone a better baseball player and regardless of whether Bonds took steroids or not, he still did hit all of those homeruns and put up all the big stats. However, the thing that makes this case suspicious is that Bonds' outburst of homeruns came in 1999 when he was 34 and has been continuing till now, something that is very rare for older baseball players to accomplish, especially when you look at pictures of him earlier in his career and compare them to his physique over the last six seasons, which causes even more suspicion. All in all, his numbers prior to the 1999 season when he supposedly starting juicing are Hall of Fame worthy, but if the allegations are true and he breaks the homerun record, something should be done about it since he would have cheated.
Posted By : Anonymous
Quite honestly, I am proud of my players, be they ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 18:38:00
Quite honestly, I am proud of my players, be they roto-players or not, standing up for themselves in a spring training game as well as during the regular season. I disagree with the premise that these games are somehow less important and therefore less brawl-worthy. The brawl is about a possible career-ending injury with a shot to the head or a lack of respect for a pitcher or batter. This injury factor or lack of respect is just as powerful of a motivator in spring training as it is in the regular season or the postseason. On a side note I also kind of like the intensity of the players in spring training, as one who goes to Fla for Spring training occasionally it is nice to see the players play hard and be intense. In America's Pasttime the players seem to take Practice, yes Allen Iverson, Practice seriously and while not true for everyone most players do play like they practice.
Posted By : Brian Barnes
I think Josh Beckett blew things way out of propor...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 18:48:00
I think Josh Beckett blew things way out of proportion. Howard is a stand up guy and as never been know to do the least bit of showboating. That was a classless move by Josh Beckett. And to drag it on while he was in the dugout? He should worry more about his health and blisters. A fragile guy like Beckett starting fights, not what the Red Sox want.
Posted By : tommie
As a Red Sox hater and dedicated Tampa Bay fan, I'...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 19:06:00
As a Red Sox hater and dedicated Tampa Bay fan, I'm loving the bad blood, frankly. This is going to be a fun season.
Posted By : tim in tampa
While brawls are rare in spring training games bec...
Message posted on : 2006-03-27 - 21:13:00
While brawls are rare in spring training games because the games tend not to be as competitive, I do think that fights are sometimes inevitable. I didn't see what happened in this game, but my initial reaction is, why the heck would a base runner intentionally take out a pitcher covering home plate? That's just not part of the game for a lot of reasons; it could lead to serious injury to the pitcher and it serves no valid purpose like breaking up a double play. The pitcher reacted like most probably would (spring training or regular season), and his teammates are going to protect him in the process.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
The Astros aren't going to call Bagwell a roider w...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 11:32:00
The Astros aren't going to call Bagwell a roider without some evidence - doing so would open them up to all kinds of trouble, legal and otherwise.
I have extreme doubts about the article you link about Bagwell being the "root of all steroid usage" - there's so much speculation in the article disguised as fact that I have trouble taking any of it seriously, even if some of it may be true.
And besides speculation, I haven't heard a lot of evidence for Bagwell being on the juice.
I'm not sure I buy your argument that the Astros want to get rid of Bagwell because he can't take roids anymore. The simple fact is that Bagwell is old, hurt, and incapable of playing at even a replacement level. But if Bagwell can even put together a few at bats this year, the Astros will have a hard time collecting the insurance.
I don't know that we can really bring steroids into this argument.
Posted By : Satchmo
I believe bagwell took steroids
look at how has...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 14:53:00
I believe bagwell took steroids
look at how has physique has changed, especially when MLB started testing
Plus he is always getting hurt, ala sosa, ala bonds, ala nomar, ala mcgwire
Posted By : tommie
Ditto to everything Satchmo said. Interesting pos...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 14:59:00
Ditto to everything Satchmo said. Interesting post, but from a contract law standpoint, I don't see the validity of any of these theories to permit the Astros to rid Bagwell of their contract. The CBA and the standard player contract don't permit termination on the grounds that the club simply "thinks" the player "might" have taken steroids at some point in his career.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Undergraduate admissions people call this the "Flu...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 14:59:00
Undergraduate admissions people call this the "Flutie Factor" (google it), due to what has been mythologized in admissions circles as a boost in admissions and academic prowess due to sucess in athletics. Real or perceived, such a factor has been used as a justification for further investment in athletic departments.
http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/spring_2003/ll_phenomenology.html
"The number of applications to BC did increase 30 percent over [Doug]Flutie's junior and senior years.
"At Georgetown University, whose men's basketball team appeared in NCAA championship games in 1982, 1984, and 1985, applications rose 45 percent between 1983 and 1986. And freshman enrollment at Gonzaga University rose from 549 to 979 between 1997 and 2001, years in which Gonzaga's men's basketball team outplayed some of the nation's powerhouses in the NCAA tournament. Were there other reasons for the rise of Georgetown and Gonzaga? No doubt, but they were not nationally televised."
Posted By : Timothy Epstein
What is or even is their a possibility of the Astr...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 15:16:00
What is or even is their a possibility of the Astros' buying out the remainder of his contract, knowing that his market value will bring nothing comparable in return; Secondly, to attempt to void his contract because of his allegedly use of steroids will only open a can of worms for the organization.
Posted By : Anonymous
The linked article about Bagwell being the source ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 15:56:00
The linked article about Bagwell being the source of all steroid use is just a little tongue in cheek, no? I don't live anywhere near Houston but I've never heard any rumors of steroid use. The guy hurt his shoulder a few years ago, and it never really healed. Given that injury, is it any wonder he probably can't play anymore? I hardly think a shoulder injury can be positively beyond a doubt attributed to steroid use.
Posted By : Anonymous
As someone who has published in the area of the "F...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 16:02:00
As someone who has published in the area of the "Flutie Factor" (see links below), it is far easier for me to visualize a link between athletic success and admissions applicants or fund raising revenues than to something like law school rankings. While I'm not intimately familiar with all of the criteria used to establish those rankings, such a relationship seems to be a bit of a stretch.
http://www.thesportjournal.org/2006Journal/Vol9-No1/McEvoy1.asp
http://www.thesmartjournal.com/admissions.pdf
http://www.thesportjournal.org/2005Journal/Vol8-No1/Chad_McEvoy.asp
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
The article does seem tongue-in-cheek, doesn't it?...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 16:27:00
The article does seem tongue-in-cheek, doesn't it? But nevertheless, a lot of players who people suspect of steroid use are named in there, including Bagwell.
It's ok to speculate, and to wonder how certain individuals bulked up so much, or how certain people seemed to lose their power after testing started, but it's another thing to apply those speculations to the law.
I think this is the problem we're seeing with the reaction to Bonds, and Bagwell is no different.
Could he have been on steroids? Sure. But could he also have been a great natural athlete who had a great hitting eye throughout his career, and the second best player the Red Sox ever gave up on? I think that's possible as well. Both? Perhaps that's possible too.
Posted By : Satchmo
I know applying them to law will be difficult
...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 17:02:00
I know applying them to law will be difficult
However i wonder what clauses about steroids are in these contracts
I dont think it is anything specifc. But from a USA today article http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/yankees/2005-02-14-giambi-contract-language_x.htm
Team officials said the seven-year, $120 million contract banned Giambi from using "illegal drugs" or involvement in "chemical use and dependency."
And there is also talk in a previous Sports Law blog - http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2004/12/giambi-admits-to-using-steroids-what.html
What if it is proven he did take steroids?
What are the remedies?
Posted By : tommie
An "obviously doped up player"? Does the article a...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 18:18:00
An "obviously doped up player"? Does the article about Bagwell cite a single source for its assertions?
Look at the URL...it's called "Bagwell conspiracy." I can't imagine that the linked article is the basis for anything...not for a contract claim by the Astros, and frankly, not for any serious discussion on a reputable sports law blog.
If you look at Bagwell's numbers it's pretty hard to identify any obvious steroid use. His home runs and slugging percentage are consistent with the normal development and aging pattern of a top major league baseball player.
Remember also that a large part of Bagwell's value has come from his on base percentage. He had a tremendous batting eye from the beginning.
He can't make a throw from 1b to 2b, and when I say "can't make a throw" I don't mean it is a weak throw. I mean it doesn't actually arrive. Let's not turn an injury to a fine major leaguer at the end of his career into a scandal story for no apparent reason.
Even if someone can find evidence of steroids, Bagwell is the best player in Astros history. Bagwell and Biggio are the first true Astros with a legit shot at the Hall of Fame (Nolan Ryan only played 8 of his 27 seasons in Houston and Joe Morgan even less). There's no way the club is going to besmirch his name in any way; not even for $14 million.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
for the amount Johnson makes he should care about ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 20:55:00
for the amount Johnson makes he should care about this but I don't know if this is right either..
I'd like to say
New News from Deadspin and ESPN.com.. reporting that the Duke Men's Lacrosse team has been suspended. (http://www.deadspin.com/sports/lacrosse/duke-lacrosse-team-on-the-brink-163424.php)
Posted By : Ryguy
Quick question
Since Johnson didn't start p...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 22:16:00
Quick question
Since Johnson didn't start paying until the kid was 8, couldn't it be argued that he was negligent on child support before then, and therefore shouldn't complain about the five years since she hasn't been in child care?
Posted By : Satchmo
Will: Good question. I'm guessing that Johnson ma...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 23:09:00
Will: Good question. I'm guessing that Johnson may have sent Roszell money through some kind of informal or formal agreement before their daughter turned 8. Otherwise, I'd have to think that she would have sued him for child payments. And maybe she did--either because there was no agreement or because it was insufficient--and that is what led to the 1997 agreement between Johnson and Roszell.
Ryguy: thanks for the link on that story, I'm sure one of us will write about it in the next day or so.
Posted By : Michael McCann
This accident is terrible and may I say that we se...
Message posted on : 2006-03-28 - 23:39:00
This accident is terrible and may I say that we send all our condolences to the Dana family. Moving on to the law topic at hand, we must consider the context in which Paul Dana was killed. He was participating in his career as a race car driver, performing of the tasks that he is essentially paid to do. Essentially, he is paid to race, first, by prize winning races, and second, by the companies that sponsor Mr. Dana. With his death, who is liable? Can we consider his employer liable, for he was killed on the job? Or can his death simply be covered by tort law considering that he died participating in a sport with assumed risk? Is Ed Carpenter liable?
Personally, I feel that any liability should and from the way it appears, is covered by tort law "assumption of risk." However, in this case, there is a major ethical dillemma: How will Paul Dana's family pay the bills for the next couple of years. If you ask for my legal opinion, we would have to say that the "law can be a bitch." But if we think of this from an ethical perspective, his family should be granted money for the following several years as they get themselves back together. From my ethical perspective, the large firms that sponsored Paul Dana and perhaps the large IRL organization should help this family out with the salary Mr. Dana would have earned over those past years. Law and ethics go hand in hand, and I feel that these firms should help take care of Mr. Dana's family in this particularly hard time of need.
Posted By : Fred
I believe a football player had a similar clause i...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 02:39:00
I believe a football player had a similar clause in his contract a few years ago. He played for the Bengals, I do not know who it was though.
Posted By : tommie
I think a "bad mouth" clause is vague in language ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 08:43:00
I think a "bad mouth" clause is vague in language and utterly unforceable, until specific words, phrases, actions are included in the clause.
Also, if a coach said he did not "intentionally" or intend on using some disparaging comment during the post-game interview, would that be a way out of any punishment in this clause?
Posted By : Anonymous
Well, Bloom could get paid to ski (prize money, et...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 11:47:00
Well, Bloom could get paid to ski (prize money, etc.), he just couldn't have endorsement relationships. And this situation makes you see why that rule is in place -- if Zbikowski could have endorsement relationships in connection with this fight, he would get them -- but he would get them because he's an ND football player, not because he's a well-known boxer.
Posted By : john
Endorsement agreements have non-disparagement clau...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 11:49:00
Endorsement agreements have non-disparagement clauses in them all the time. If you endorse Coke, you can't say, "I don't like Coke," or "I like Pepsi." Completely enforceable.
Posted By : john
Thanks for the various comments. I was looking f...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 14:01:00
Thanks for the various comments. I was looking for a quick citation to support the assertion that there have long been allegations that Bagwell has used steroids. I could have looked harder, e.g., http://www.publicradio.org/columns/kpcc/baseball/2005/08/vote_for_fred.html.
The truth is, we'll never know if Bagwell was on the juice. Bagwell's denied it. He may suffer from "guilt by association" with admitted users like Caminiti and other users of that same era (the '90s). My post was merely meant to raise some questions for the sake of provoking thinking, not to build the prosecution's case against Bagwell.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
John is correct. Mr. Anonymous is clearly an acade...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 14:33:00
John is correct. Mr. Anonymous is clearly an academic and has no practical experience in drafting sports contracts.
Posted By : Anonymous
"I don't like the University of Missouri" is proba...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 14:46:00
"I don't like the University of Missouri" is probably enforceable, because there wouldn't be much argument about whether it is disparaging. But what about a subtle offhand comment that university presidents ought to give more attention to athletic programs? Grounds for termination?
I'd be surprised if the coach's intent mattered in a breach of contract claim. From the university's perspective, even an innocent (but honest) criticism of the university creates a PR problem for them. They would think of it as a breach of loyalty for him to even hold a negative opinion, irrespective of whether he meant to say it aloud.
From the SI link, I cannot tell whether the non-disparagement clause carries over to post-employment, but if he gets fired for bad mouthing during the term of the contract, I bet the bad mouthing would step up a notch after the firing. :) Then again, he'll be seeking another job, and the market for coaches that blast their former universities would be limited to the desperate.
Of the same character, but equally troubling from the coaches' point of view, is "maintain a mature and rational attitude, keep emotions in control and downplay defeats".
Can he yell at players? Can he scream at officials on national t.v.? Can he chide the team for a particularly sloppy loss? What if he slips up and criticizes a ref's call during the post-game news conference? Would it be immature to criticize the opponent, or the opponent's fans?
I suppose that the "maturity" clause would be judged in light of industry standards, which are admittedly low for basketball coaches. :)
In reality these coaches can get fired for any number of trumped up reasons. There's often a settlement at the end anyway. The university has the bargaining power here.
I suspect that one of the reasons these clauses are included is not simply for legal enforcement, but as the university's formal statement of the aspirational goals it expects the coach to adhere to. Its presence in the contract speaks a little louder than a sign on the wall of the athletic department or an internal policy manual.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Placing clauses in contracts allows one of the par...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 14:56:00
Placing clauses in contracts allows one of the parties to make an argument, in the future, to a judge if necessary, that the clause should be enforceable. If the clause is not there, there's no issue. It's simply called good contract drafting and that's why some lawyers are better at contract drafting while other lawyers make their living in the courtroom.
Posted By : Anonymous
There are a couple of law professors who are membe...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 15:01:00
There are a couple of law professors who are members of SABR, including Roger Abrams at Northeastern (who has written several books) and Neil Cohen at Brooklyn. There are several attorneys as well (including labor law attorneys) and a member of the NLRB residing at Stanford.
There may be others, but inclusion of information about legal expertise is optional in the member directory.
SABR conventions are a lot of fun. Membership is also inexpensive, and you get a lot of nice "free" publications. Last year there was a trade paperback book on Fenway Park and a hardbound book called "Deadball Stars of the National League"...both of very high quality. You also get a newsletter and the quarterly "Baseball Research Journal".
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I couldn't agree with you more about this issue be...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 17:16:00
I couldn't agree with you more about this issue being solely a criminal offense, that has nothing to do with sports. This offense has nothing to do with how the game is played, the rules of the game, or the financial or economic aspects of the sport, and that is another reason why this is not a "sports law" matter.
Posted By : Anonymous
Are you kidding me? You honestly don't think ther...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 17:44:00
Are you kidding me? You honestly don't think there's a correlation between sports like football and violent and sexual crimes? You are out of your mind.
If I'm not wrong, I believe even a law professor from Duke -- Paul Hagen? -- has indicated that he thinks there may be a link between helmet sports and rape.
I understand that you may be an alumnus of Duke, but to argue that we shouldn't be discussing the real issue of crime and sports just to avoid an embarassing story about your school is beyond the pale.
Posted By : Bill
Michael: I think that the most recent set of fact...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 17:59:00
Michael: I think that the most recent set of facts to come out of Durham might prove you wrong. I think your premise is noble, but what's recently been posted on espn.com indicates that 15 of the 47 Duke players had been cited with all sorts of misconduct over the past three years. If that's the case, then someone at Duke hasn't been doing his or her job --in reigning in the leadership of the lacrosse program and teaching certain (but most certainly not all) of the team members how to be real men. More will come out, I am sure, but this story is a sports story and not just a criminal story.
Posted By : SportsProf
Here's an excerpt from the Raleigh News and Observ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 17:59:00
Here's an excerpt from the Raleigh News and Observer:
Paul Haagen, chairman of Duke's Academic Council, was in a faculty meeting about the incident.
'This is sad'
"There was a sense of, 'This is sad, and it's terrible,' " Haagen said. "Beyond that, people don't know what's going on."
Haagen, a law professor who specializes in sports law, said studies show that violence against women is more prevalent among male athletes than among male students in general -- and higher still among such "helmet sports" as football, hockey and lacrosse.
"These are sports of violence," he said. "This is clearly a concern."
Here's the link:
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/421799.html
Also, what about the great team work of the Duke Lacrosse team? Apparently none of them will cooperate with the police ... in solidarity with their alleged rapist teammates. Go team!
Posted By : Bill
The smoking gun has the search warrant: http://ww...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 18:38:00
The smoking gun has the search warrant: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke1.html. The fingernails (five of them) sound bad for the suspects.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I do not know much about how much these drivers ge...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 20:14:00
I do not know much about how much these drivers get paid, however, I know they get paid a lot in Nascar. People know the risk they are getting into when they do this sport. Anybody in their right mind can see that racing cars at over 200 mph is dangerous. Who in their right mind could blame someone for this crash, unless someone caused it on purpose.
I am very surprised that there ar eno tmore accidents. Look at how the cars are built as well.
It is like "enter at your own risk" they know what they are getting themselves into. Maybe that is why it is illegal to drive over 65 MPH in most states and illegal to race. It is very dangerous, and I am very surprised there are not more accidents.
Posted By : tommie
The constitutional viability of the Wonderlic test...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 20:16:00
The constitutional viability of the Wonderlic test, if it does have a disparate impact on minorities, seems to turn on, as you suggest, its ability to predict future job performance. In the parlance of the job testing industry, this is known as test validation. (See Washington v. Davis 426 U.S. 229 (1976) for a general discussion of this topic.)
In the context of quarterback performance, not to mention performance at other positions on the football field, I think it would be difficult, if not impossible to prove that the Wonderlic test has a sufficient predictive effect on future performance to be validated under the standards articulated by the high court in Washington v. Davis. How would one show that because Alex Smith and Joey Harrington were smart, they generally do better than other quarterbacks who didn't score well on the Wonderlic test? (On a related note, Dan Marino famously scored very low on the Wonderlic test. He seemed to turn out okay.)
As a caveat, however, the best predictor of job performance, overwelmingly, is the general intelligence of the employment candidate. As the Wonderlic purports to test, in some sense, general intelligence, it could thus be said to be valid under that construction. Truly though, isn't sports possibly the one place where general intelligence is not a strong predictor of future performance?
Posted By : Anonymous
Be sure to ask Dick Moss about why he's basically ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 20:56:00
Be sure to ask Dick Moss about why he's basically irrelevant in baseball these days... how many players does he represent, one in the ML? And yet he'll still tell you that the owners conspire with every contract and that he's the greatest thing to ever happen to baseball.
Posted By : Anonymous
I am a new menber of SABR and agree with your comm...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 22:06:00
I am a new menber of SABR and agree with your comment about this organization developing a baseball law section.
The steroids issue, player contracts, labor concerns and a whole host of other "legal" issues are good examples why this would be a good choice for SABR to look at the "law scetion" recommendation.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 23:18:00
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Posted By : Fred
This would not even be this big news if it wasn't ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 23:21:00
This would not even be this big news if it wasn't from Duke, and we all know because of their basketball team.
Posted By : tommie
Hey Tommie:
I agree that there is definitel...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 23:22:00
Hey Tommie:
I agree that there is definitely assumption of risk, and thats part of the job, and it ought to be expected of the athletes. But, would you say that there is assumption of risk working in the mining industry, or roofers, or even timber cutters. Timber cutting is the most dangerous job with 118 people dying per year of the 100,000 currently employed in that field. Yet, when they are injured or in this case killed, do you think the lumber companies take care of their families? I would bet that their families are at least given some cash. As cold as that may sound, I am sure that their families are granted some funds to get back on their feet.
I am not saying that race car driving is safe, nor am I saying that Paul Dana did not understand that his life was at risk, I am just saying, from an ethical point, should the Dana family receive some form of compensation. Legally, I agree, they are not entitled to that money, but if they are not entitled to that money, should our lumberjacks work an environment of assumed risk as well, where god forbid they are hurt, they can rest assured that their families will be taken care of.
Posted By : Fred
Fred, I think the decision will ultimately be in t...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 23:28:00
Fred, I think the decision will ultimately be in the hands of the owners of the cars and the racing league. Again, I do not know much about this type but i know that Nascar has a lot of money. It would be the right thing to do for drivers, nascar (or the appropriate leaue) and the owners of the cars to all dontate money. It looks better for the league, looks better to other racers in case they fear a similar situation, and andis the right thing to do especially since they are making all this money off of these racers. I am sure a few hundred thousand in this business would not be hard to come by and would be the proper thing to do, although there is definately no legal obligation.
Posted By : tommie
Are we ready to make a federal case (literally) ou...
Message posted on : 2006-03-29 - 23:31:00
Are we ready to make a federal case (literally) out of the issue of what it takes to be a great NFL quarterback? The NFL spends millions of dollars each year evaluating talent - and the Wonderlic is one small part of this evaluation. The fact that McNabb and Culpepper were drafted high in the first round (2nd and 11th, respectively) is a strong indication that teams don't discriminate based on the test results.
The fact is that no one knows exactly what it takes to be an NFL quarterback (how many people predicted Tom Brady's success?). I fully expect the NFL to employ every measure short of palm readers to try and make the best selection. And the fact that a few quarterbacks that go on to arguably successful careers (but then again, how many Super Bowl rings to McNabb, Culpepper and Marino have?) scored poorly does not seem to be that big a deal.
Posted By : Anonymous
I would agree but what about the relations that co...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 00:28:00
I would agree but what about the relations that could happen in terms of the law and the NCAA (suspending the season or other infractions) would that be a part of sports law?
Other than that, this whole story is just a can of worms and could develop into a lot worse for the University. What do you think the long term effects on this are for the Duke Athletlics program?
Posted By : Ryguy
are there more posts in this blog? i can only fin...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 00:38:00
are there more posts in this blog? i can only find this one.
Posted By : southwest brewer
Are you really suggesting that thinking under pres...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 00:42:00
Are you really suggesting that thinking under pressure is not a skill or ability that is necessary for performance? Why would the fact that Harrington and his 32 Wonderlic be evidence that this is not true? The counterexamples you raise, of course, are evidence that there are also OTHER skills and abilities necessary for performance at QB. But I am having a hard time following the argument that the Wonderlic does not test any skills relevant to performance.
Posted By : Anonymous
Doesn't the baserunner have just as much or a righ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 01:31:00
Doesn't the baserunner have just as much or a right to run through a pitcher coving home as he would if it were a catcher. I've seen plenty of guys run through catchers like a traing when they were covering the plate.
I actually haven't seen the play on video. Did he leave part of the plate for a runner to easily tag it or did he cover it up as if it was his plate. If he covered it up....he should expect to get run over.
Posted By : C
I'm real pissed about this deal. Here was a guy, a...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 08:37:00
I'm real pissed about this deal. Here was a guy, a good solid player, who liked his team and town enough to give up 4 million dollars, more than most people will probably ever make, just to stay with the team and with the town, and they went and traded him. Sure there are no gaurantees, but who cares what a contract says, if someone sticks up for you and you stab them in the back you're a worthless subhuman. And I was a huge Red Sox fan, but they've just taken all the sportsmanship out of the game now. Until the Red Sox do what it takes to get Arroyo back, I think anyone who's a fan of baseball should boycott the red sox.
Posted By : Anonymous
The Wonderlic is essentially a timed test, that al...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 08:43:00
The Wonderlic is essentially a timed test, that allows one to attack moderate to difficult problems in a short, timed setting. Yes, it might provide a team insight about the prospect's general intelligence, but how many times do we hear a player's "feel or mind for the game" become a deciding factor in becoming drafted/selected.
Posted By : Anonymous
In Christine Brennan's USA Today column, she explo...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 09:04:00
In Christine Brennan's USA Today column, she explores the fact that no one is coming forward and cooperating with the police. She posits that the fact they are all on the same team has something to do with it. Here's an excerpt:
Police in Durham, N.C., where Duke is located, say that the team has refused to cooperate with their investigation into a sexual assault that allegedly occurred at an off-campus party March 13, giving us all a whole new definition of the word teamwork.
Perhaps if no one is found guilty of any criminal activity in this unseemly affair, the collective silence of the Blue Devils someday will be seen as admirable. For now, though, the sports world's vaunted concept of team is reaching a frightening extreme.
With the men's lacrosse team's season now suspended, with the Duke community in an uproar, with so many questions about the behavior of students who represent a university unanswered, a puzzling thought lingers: Is this really how a team is supposed to behave?
"There are degrees of protecting your teammates, but this crosses the line," said Mike Eruzione, the captain of the most famous and beloved team in U.S. sports history, the 1980 "Miracle on Ice" Olympic hockey team.
"To me, a serious crime has possibly been committed," Eruzione said in a phone interview Wednesday. "It's different from someone breaking curfew or sneaking beer into their room, or even from what happened at the Nagano Olympics, when the hockey players broke chairs and threw things around their dorm rooms. In those cases, everyone keeps quiet and you don't tell the coach. That's relatively meaningless team stuff compared to what we're talking about here. We're talking about an accusation of rape."
Posted By : Bill
Ryguy- Obviously, the penalties imposed because o...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 09:41:00
Ryguy- Obviously, the penalties imposed because of this incident will affect the lacrosse team at Duke, which goes from contender for a national title to not even fielding a team. However, in my opinion this is not enough to make it "sports law," just as Eddie Sutton's arrest and leave of absence was not "sports law."
I think the impact on Duke athletics generally will be minimal. The school has done the right thing by not letting the incident fly under the radar and female recruits likely will appreciate that. I don't think many star recruits will re-think their decisions, but you never know. The impact on lacrosse, however, could be big. This may have a devastating impact on recruiting, as a player may not want to identify himself (at least in the near future) as playing lacrosse for Duke, because the first thing people will think about is an alleged rape.
Bill -- The Eruzione comments are interesting but I disagree that the "team" element makes this sports law. There is little difference in my mind about this group banding together than if they were in a fraternity or just a group of friends.
Again, I am not saying this is not a sports story. I am not saying this is not a law story. And I am not saying we should not be discussing it. But just because something is a sports story and a law story, does not, in my opinion, make it a "sports law" story.
Posted By : Greg
RyGuy,
I wouldn't think this would have an eff...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 09:42:00
RyGuy,
I wouldn't think this would have an effect on the Duke Sports program, minus lacrosse. We are talking about lacrosse here, a rather new sport that generates hardly any money and a sport that most people do not care about. Duke basketball has such a good and classy reputation that although a serious crime has been committed, tradition will NOT be ruined by lacrosse. Remembe, this is lacrosse.
Coach K has built a legacy and this cannot get tarnished by people who play lacrosse, or crew, or rugby. There are rumblings that Duke's personell did not handle this properly, but that will not ruin the Duke atheltic program. Also remember, all we have is an accusation, and they are innocent till proven guilty. Just because someone says a team, or teammates committed a crime you cannot just suspend your team. They have to look into the allegation and make sure this is legit, especially before they announce it to the public.
Posted By : tommie
Bill: Using your original post, I could say along...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 10:11:00
Bill: Using your original post, I could say along the same lines: "Any male who works for NBC Sports is likely to be more involved with violent crimes than the general population". (O.J., Jason Williams, Marv Albert, Peter Vecsey; common facotr was all worked for NBC Sports at time of their accused crimes.)
Heck, your post even reminds me of the now-discredited study which purported to show that domestic violence was at its highest on . . . Super Bowl Sunday.
To Sportsprof: I wonder if there has been any reports on other teams with large numbers of players besides football and now lacrosse (i.e. track & field, crew, women's track, women's crew, men's & women's ice hockey or field hockey, etc.) regarding "misconducts" by players. Of course, what is defined as "misconducts" might be interesting...
Posted By : Anonymous
I'd be interested to see some stat geeks over at E...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 10:27:00
I'd be interested to see some stat geeks over at ESPN to run a correlation statistic on different pre-draft measurables.
I'm pretty sure there'd be a correlation (although my guess is that it would be relatively weak).
The pre-draft measurables with the most positive correlation? Probably the 40-yard-dash (and the number of times Mel Kiper gets overecstatic when mentioning a prospect's name).
Posted By : jeffiepan
Wow ... I guess the recent headlines regarding Mar...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 10:36:00
Wow ... I guess the recent headlines regarding Marcus Vick, the QB for the Navy football team, Kobe Bryant, University of Colorado Football Team (Greg -- didn't you post on that?), Maurice Clarret, etc. have nothing to do with sports law.
Posted By : Bill
Yes, I believe that a news story about athletes ge...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 11:16:00
Yes, I believe that a news story about athletes getting arrested is not "sports law," just as a story about a doctor being arrested would not be "health care law" or a story about the chairman of the FCC being arrested would not be "administrative law."
And we post on lots of stories, including some that are pure sports and some that are pure law.
Posted By : Greg
its call entertainment, if hockey can have two pla...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 11:31:00
its call entertainment, if hockey can have two players hitting each other why shouldnt some NFL players celebrate a touch down? lets take into consideration the fans do love it?
Posted By : Anonymous
jeffiepan, you ask and you shall receive, although...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 11:57:00
jeffiepan, you ask and you shall receive, although not from an ESPN stat geek per se (that I know of anyway...as far as I can tell the author is an economist unaffiliated with ESPN). The following link is to a 2005 published study statistically examining this very topic:
http://www.thesportjournal.org/2005Journal/Vol8-No2/mac-mirabile.asp
This study found no significant statistical relationship between Wonderlic scores and QB performance.
Cheers,
Chad
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Bill,
I agree totaly agree this is not a sp...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 12:44:00
Bill,
I agree totaly agree this is not a sports law case. It is a case where student/athletes may have gone too far. However, far to often I conitune to see where student/athletes have the feeling they are above the law just because they are an athlete. This is at the college and professional level and as a high school athletic director it is now filtering down to that my level.
Posted By : Anonymous
Outstanding and candid comments. A must read for ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 14:04:00
Outstanding and candid comments. A must read for law students and prospective law students interested in a sports law career. In addition to taking the classes that you mention, I recommend that students consider a substantive sports law writing project while in law school, and hopefully generate a publishable student note from that project. A publication can go a long way in distinguishing one sports law candidate from the hundreds or thousands of other candidates competing for a sports law position, because it shows that you have an expertise in a sports law topic and, just as importantly, that you obviously work really hard.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Thank you.
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 15:38:00
Thank you.
Posted By : Casey Johnson
1 question.... it says CONTINUED.... what date was...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 15:40:00
1 question.... it says CONTINUED.... what date was the first part? I'll start searching, but a approximate date would be great.
Thanks
Posted By : Casey Johnson
Sorry I see there is a July 19 post. New to the b...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 15:41:00
Sorry I see there is a July 19 post. New to the blog reading. Didn't realize it was linked
Posted By : Anonymous
At UCLA, the Sports Law class is taught (excellent...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 16:10:00
At UCLA, the Sports Law class is taught (excellently) by the head of the clinical program. He probably self-identifies as a teacher of trial ad or something.
Posted By : Anonymous
Very helpful for all of us sports law hopefuls
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 18:06:00
Very helpful for all of us sports law hopefuls
Posted By : Anonymous
Hi Geoff and all. Let me add my two cents to the c...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 20:06:00
Hi Geoff and all. Let me add my two cents to the classes students should take if they are interested in Sports Law. I would add Higher Education and the Law (College and University law) to the list. Consisent with Geoff's point about NCAA compliance officer being a good job opportunity, we spend a good deal of time covering issues such as athletic eligibility, coaches' contracts, athlete drug testing, and Title IX gender equity issues in the Higher Ed class. I have one student who is writing his Higher Ed paper this semester on bringing the NFL's Rooney rule to the college level and another who is putting forth a new proposal to improve Title IX as it applies to non-revenue sports.
Best, Paul
Posted By : Paul
I heard a whisper (inotherwords source I won't say...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 20:30:00
I heard a whisper (inotherwords source I won't say) from someone who knows one lacrosse recruit is now turned off from Duke because of this situation.
Posted By : Ryguy
I have been saying basketball should take this rou...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 23:45:00
I have been saying basketball should take this route for a little while now. It is about time we get rid of the Isiah Thomas' of the world.
However basketball maybe different in regards to moneyball. Look how many players score 20 points per game and do not replicate it. What is the right equation of points rebounds, assists, steals, blocks fouls committed etc... Also basketball is game that requires more chemistry and non statbook stats than any other sport, such as good defense. Look how valuabel Bruce Bowen is. Those would be some interesting stats, how much players score against certain players.
Maybe this system is good with the draft, Ryan Gomes, an all-american as a junior at Providence is playing better than most rookie forwards. He cetainly seems like a better pick than Marvin Williams. And what about Jameer Nelson two years ago?
So I do not know how much inflluence he had in the draft, but Gomes is great and on the flipside Oriene Greene may be the worst player from that draft. Wonder why Doc Rivers even plays him, maybe we need moneyball coaches too!
Posted By : tommie
Thanks for this post. Is there any additional adv...
Message posted on : 2006-03-30 - 23:47:00
Thanks for this post. Is there any additional advice anyone has for someone who's already working, say, a junior litigation associate at a large firm (that unforunately does very little sports work)? Also, do franchises actively look to hire young attorneys, or do young attorneys more or less "create their own luck/opportunities" by networking, etc.?
Posted By : ken
Tommie, those are good points, I too am a big Ryan...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 00:33:00
Tommie, those are good points, I too am a big Ryan Gomes fan. As to Orien Greene, his off-court struggles seem to be drawing more attention than his on-court struggles: he was arrested earlier this week for driving 90 MPH on Main Street in Waltham, Massachusetts, while trying to evade the cops at 3 AM:
"The Celtics suspended rookie point guard Orien Greene yesterday for what will likely be one game, according to coach Doc Rivers and executive director of basketball operations Danny Ainge. The suspension stems from Greene's arrest early Monday morning in Waltham for a handful of driving violations, including failure to stop for police, operating to endanger, marked lane violation, and speeding. Although the criminal charges -- failure to stop and operating to endanger -- were dismissed upon payment of a $200 fine, the Celtics suspended Greene for conduct detrimental to the team. The one-game suspension will cost Greene about $4,500."
From: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2006/03/30/greene_takes_a_back_seat/
Posted By : Michael McCann
Paul--could you explain what the "Rooney rule" is ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 01:11:00
Paul--could you explain what the "Rooney rule" is and how that could apply to college sports (per your post)? I'm not a lawyer and have never heard of this rule.
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
The Rooney Rule is the rule that NFL teams must in...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 09:08:00
The Rooney Rule is the rule that NFL teams must interview at least one minority candidate for head-coaching positions. No parralel exists on the college level, where racial imbalances (especially in football coaching ranks) are striking.
As for attorneys in firms seeking to jump to in-house positions with franchises, I would say that is a tough leap to make. I have heard of some people getting interviews or nibbles after sending a letter, but it's hard to get in the door without a connection of some sort. There are a lot of young lawyers working for franchises, but many of them are not in "counsel" roles (most franchises have, at most, one or two in-house lawyers). Intead, lawyers are often doing non-lawyering business type work (negotiating contracts, arranging visas for team trips to Canada, managing salary cap figures). Still neat jobs, but not typical legal work (and therefore not something that big firm experience translates all that well towards doing).
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
That's crazy. Victor Conte is a criminal who belo...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 10:45:00
That's crazy. Victor Conte is a criminal who belongs behind bars
Posted By : Matt J
That's crazy. Victor Conte belongs behind bars
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 10:46:00
That's crazy. Victor Conte belongs behind bars
Posted By : Matt J
The league is turning but starting its 11th season...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 11:12:00
The league is turning but starting its 11th season. There was a lot of hype last year about the "10th season"
Posted By : Oscar M
It is crazy, and yes he does.
But -- the Co...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 12:24:00
It is crazy, and yes he does.
But -- the Conte thing does call some of the Shadows evidence into question. I am not saying that Bonds is innocent; but I do believe that the authors have been very aggressive in deciding which evidence is reliable and which is not.
Conte has freely admitted -- on network television, and while still facing charges -- to giving steroids to a number of athletes, including America's top track stars and a number of NFL players. In that interview 15 months ago, when asked a direct question about Bonds, he said that he had no specific knowledge about Bonds' drug use.
Why would this attention-seeking glory hound, who was so anxious to claim credit for the performances of Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery, lie to protect Barry Bonds? It doesn't make sense. I think he is probably telling the truth on this issue. He gave his products to Anderson, but never to Bonds, and never saw Bonds using them.
Posted By : Amateur
Internships work. Some of our previous interns (I...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 14:33:00
Internships work. Some of our previous interns (I work for a Union) have gone on to: become agents, GC for a large agency; work for teams; legal intern for the league. In any sport, the number of players (i.e. non-field) is relatively small, so chances are your prospective employer has heard of or knows the person with whom you interned.
A recommendation from someone known is often worth more than any resume item. In my book, “smart and works hard� from someone I know is usually more valuable than GPA, law review, or school.
Make sure your cover letter and resume are free of any errors. It's not a blog post, so go over it and have others go over it. As an example, in one cover letter I received, the person used “peaked� instead of “piqued�. Spell check only returns incorrect spelling, not incorrect usage. Further, figure out the correct name of the organization and the correct name(s) and title(s) of the person you are contacting.
Don't feel you have to start in the place you want to end up. Foot in the door and name recognition of your previous supervisor is what you should be aiming for. Ticket offices, training staff, PR, game-day, or community relations, can be good places to start – even if you want to end up as staff counsel or GM.
Posted By : Anonymous
Mike- Say what you will about an off-court dress ...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 18:04:00
Mike- Say what you will about an off-court dress code, you do have to admit that the NBA has far more right (if not an absolute right) to dictate what athletes can and cannot wear on the court. Every league has uniform restrictions that are intended to protect the image of the league, promote uniformity, and prevent the players from using the league's stage to make statements. If the players really have a good reason for wearing tights, then the union will push for it. But if it is more of a fashion statement than a "medical need" (one wonders how Jordan ever managed to play without tights), then the league has every right to ban the practice.
Posted By : Greg
I'd like to see this if all the 112 private school...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 18:56:00
I'd like to see this if all the 112 private schools would correspond and give their accounting numbers for the data. My college plays in the MAAC and all our schools are private so I couldn't find any new information on those schools.
But shouldn't the NCAA and this study be able to get those numbers because those colleges take federal money?
Posted By : Ryguy
Greg that would be a good defense if we see player...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 18:59:00
Greg that would be a good defense if we see players with cramps late in the season or late in games.
Also I'll use the domino effect fallacy argument that I think we will hear from some player: what's next? headbands?!
Posted By : Ryguy
Headbands are easy. The NBA (Nanny Basketball Ass...
Message posted on : 2006-03-31 - 21:53:00
Headbands are easy. The NBA (Nanny Basketball Association) next move will be to dictate to family members what they can and cannot wear to games.
Posted By : Richard Mock
The NBA can restrict things like length of shorts,...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 00:01:00
The NBA can restrict things like length of shorts, and similar apparel restrictions. It makes sense to have uniforms that look superficially similar, i.e. you don't want one team in shorts and the other in kilts. Hence the word uniform.
But I'm not sure I get a no-tights rule - if players think it helps them play, why should the NBA argue? It's not like the tights are ugly, distracting, or convey some kind of antiestablishment sentiment.
The problem as I see it is that while there may not be a medical need, except in certain cases, it could be argued that the trend gives players a psychological advantage or confidence. At the least, while a benefit to wearing tights is questionable, they haven't been shown to hurt quality of play.
So if it's not about quality of play, it would seem that the NBA is objecting solely to the superficiality and the fact that it deviates from the normal NBA on-court dress. So the issue becomes more one of taste - are tights garish or different enough to warrant banning. Would the NBA rather all players have to wear tights?
It's one thing to exceed the boundaries of good taste. But since the tights aren't ostensibly distracting to opposing players or the crowd (maybe we can talk about this when the players start wearing patterened tights or tights with bright sequins to distract opposing players), I don't think the NBA should be able to do this.
All I see here is an attempt to curtail player autonomy, for no apparent reason except the need to exert control over the players - the fear that if tights are allowed, other exceptions can be made - knee socks, headgear, etc.
Posted By : Satchmo
It's kind of hard to see how this is a bad deal.
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 01:02:00
It's kind of hard to see how this is a bad deal.
Proponents (myself included) of the deal will point out that he's been a bargain the past few years, that he's earned it with his clutch hitting, and that he's the face of the organization. That alone might be worth the contract, and then you have the main reason - his absolutely frightening ability to hit, especially in clutch situations - it's pretty amazing to listen to the respect and fear that Yankee fans have for him.
And the fact is that what he's earning (12.5 million a year until 2010) isn't really as much as we think it is. We pay #3 starters almost that kind of money nowadays. I'd much rather pay Ortiz 12.5 million a year than say, Matt Morris 9 million a year, or Jarrod Washburn 9.5 million a year.
Detractors of the move will say that you shouldn't pay a DH that much, when you can find a masher that's 25 and have them cost controlled for six years.
Which to a certain extent is true. Young players, and the cost that accompanies them, are usually worth more per dollar than your 12 million dollar free agents.
If you have a Travis Hafner, you don't have to pay a free agent like Ortiz. I'm not saying Hafner is better overall, but he is for the dollar value. But not all teams have Travis Hafners just lying around.
The Sox can afford to spend the money. With the market they are in, and the farm system that they have, they have the resources to pay Ortiz, and several other top free agents. They'll be able to field a team with veterans like Ortiz and Varitek and young talent like Papelbon, Hansen, and perhaps eventually guys like Pedroia and Ellsbury.
Really, as long as they don't pull any long-term Helton-type deals, which are the ones that can really cripple an organization, I think they'll be fine. Even if Ortiz declines, the Sox aren't exactly placing themselves in the poorhouse with this deal.
Posted By : Satchmo
Edit - I know Ortiz won't be a free agent at the e...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 01:07:00
Edit - I know Ortiz won't be a free agent at the end of 2006 - the Red Sox basically gave him an extra 5 million on his 2007 option, I believe.
Even so, I still like the deal.
Posted By : Satchmo
Given that Adam Morrison is likely to be playing i...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 10:23:00
Given that Adam Morrison is likely to be playing in the NBA next year, perhaps the league should also consider banning crying on the court and whispy mustaches?
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I think this is something that the Sox had ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 11:44:00
I think this is something that the Sox had to do in the wake of their handling of Bronson Arroyo. Arroyo took the hometown discount and was immediately traded. In the wake of that, why would any player give the Sox a discount? They needed to reward Ortiz to shore up their credibility for future negotiations.
Posted By : Anonymous
Excellent post.
I do not believe that you s...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 14:41:00
Excellent post.
I do not believe that you should reward players for previous years. That is why GMs are hired, to find players who will over perform their contract. They are hired to spot talent and players for their system.
I am not a Red Sox fan, however, I am sure there are several other teams that would have gave Ortiz this same contract. They are paying for more than his stats. They are paying for his leadership, character, charisma and everything else that be brings to the table. He makes everyone around him better. He is also a winner.
Compared to what other players make, this is not a bad deal. Just take a look at the comparable salaries throughout the league. Granted he does not play defense, he still deserves what he got. My initial reaction when I saw the article on ESPN was that Ortiz could have gotten more money. And if he went into free agency with having the same year as last year, he would have. Look at the money Adrian Beltre got, even though he is younger his impact cannot compare to Ortiz's. Teams like the Cubs, Mets and Yankees would have offered him 15 million a year.
Also when signing players to contracts, sometimes you have to add an extra year to secure the player. You realize the player wil have maybe two more MVP type seasons but you will not be able to secure him with a two year contract. I am not saying this will happen to Ortiz, he is only 30. Damon would have been better suited to a two or three year deal, look at what Bagwell is going through the last two years of a deal. These players may over perform during the first half of their contract and then it balances off towards the end.
Posted By : tommie
As a Brewer fan, I hope the Cubbies don't change o...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 16:20:00
As a Brewer fan, I hope the Cubbies don't change owners and give Dusty a 10 year extension.
Posted By : CJ
Hello Anonymous,
I just wish Tim wo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-01 - 18:10:00
Hello Anonymous,
I just wish Tim would get some
kind of a job with an NFL Team.
He has worked hard for it and
wants it bad.
I really don!t know about his
health, he has been injured
alot, and has had a multiple
arm operation. Perhaps he
could strke a deal where he
plays part time and is a coach-
advisor the rest. I just wish
someone would give him a break!
He certainly deserves it. he
doesn!t care about money now.
he is just a terrific young
man who loves football, and
I hope something opens up for
him.
Former Browns Fan
Don Wirtz
donwirtz@aol.com
Thankyou,
Posted By : Don Wirtz
Love it, what a great policy!!
Message posted on : 2006-04-02 - 00:43:00
Love it, what a great policy!!
Posted By : Anonymous
I'm glad that the NBA is so fashion conscious. I t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-02 - 00:47:00
I'm glad that the NBA is so fashion conscious. I think it's about the time for Selig to have a make-over too... that should be their next policy.
Posted By : Anonymous
"The rest [$255 million of $267 million] was used ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 09:27:00
"The rest [$255 million of $267 million] was used to pay for coaches, administrators and money-losing sports -- basically, all others except football."
FINALLY!! Someone actually says that the revenue-producing sports like basketball--and football--supports most, if not all, of the other sports.
That has been implied for a long time; here is the first time I've seen someone say that in a study and seem to back it up.
Ok, now before the Title IX, Women's Sports Foundation, and AAUW crybabies jump in about how unfair this is, please answer these:
(A) WIthout football or men's basketball, how many women's sports that are supported by the monies would exist, even with favorable court rulings and laws? (For that matter, how many MEN'S sports would exist?)
(B) Please explain to me how "fair" it is (or was) when D-I basketball schools have 13 men's scholarships . . . and 15 women's scholarships?
(C) For those advocating stipends for college athletes: Who should get them, who should not, and how much? And, how would you get around or work with Title IX?
(D) And finally, does anyone know how much money the NCAA D-I women's teams are getting for their tournament this year?
Posted By : Anonymous
Please check your facts. The asterisk has been rem...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 09:36:00
Please check your facts. The asterisk has been removed from Maris' record.
In any case, the concept of an asterisk is as irrelevant as the telegraph. No one, these days, pours over a hard copy of the record book
Posted By : some guy
Tommie--forgive my confusion, but in your post you...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 09:38:00
Tommie--forgive my confusion, but in your post you first say:
"I do not believe that you should reward players for previous years."
Then, a few lines later, you say this:
"They [Red Sox] are paying for more than his stats. They are paying for his leadership, character, charisma and everything else that be brings to the table. He makes everyone around him better. He is also a winner."
Seems to me that the Red Sox ARE rewarding David Ortiz for his "previous years"! How did he get a new contract with a larger salary? By his performance in previous years! (not solely, but largely).
Posted By : Anonymous
My biggest problem with asterisks is the notion th...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 10:19:00
My biggest problem with asterisks is the notion that Major League Baseball can just arbitrarily make up its own rules as it goes. When MLB decided to increase the schedule from the 154 games Babe Ruth played to the 162 Roger Maris (and today's players) play nobody said anything because it meant increased revenues for the game. Similarly, when MLB turned a blind eye to performance enhancing drug use (silently condoning it through its refusal to test) nobody had a problem because the McGwire-Sosa HR chase captivated America and raised MLB from its strike induced death. The Jimmy Rollins situation is slightly different, though MLB is still just making up these rules as it goes. Joe D hit in 56 straight games. Every baseball fan refers to that record as the longest hitting streak ever, not the longest single season hitting streak ever. Major League Basebll is a study in hypocrisy. There practice of using asterisks represents nothing more than rich old men manifesting another mechanism of control to serve their own wallets.
Posted By : Cal
Anonymous,
When I speak about paying people fo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 10:20:00
Anonymous,
When I speak about paying people for past accomplishments, that means they were underpaid during the previous contract, the team makes up for it by overpaying them in the new contract. In many cases this happens with older players who many do not think can duplicate that previous success.
When talking about leadership and the ability to win, I meant that just because you pay someone 10 million dollars, does not mean it is just for the numbers he puts up, but for everything he WILL bring to the table. Ortiz will continue to be leader and have a positive influence in the clubhouse, same way Jeter gets paid as much as he does, when his stats alone could not justify the salary. He has proved his leadership in the past, however he will CONTINUE to be a leader, it is not like he will not in the future.
Posted By : tommie
The asterisk has not been removed from Maris' reco...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 10:40:00
The asterisk has not been removed from Maris' record because it was never there. The whole thing was an idle threat by Ford Frick.
I might note, apropos of the Rollins case, that Matt Williams sort of broke Roger Maris' record by hitting 62 home runs in a stretch of 161 games, but it took him three seasons to do it. He hit 11 in the last 30 games of 1993, 43 in just 115 games in 1994, and 8 in the first 16 games of 1995.
Posted By : Ralph Hickok
thank you major league baseball for your arbitrary...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 10:57:00
thank you major league baseball for your arbitrary approach to decision-making and leadership in general which always seems to make issues out of race and team affiliation.
in this case, it is too obvious not to comment on - joe d is white and a new york yankee, while jimmy rollins is black and not a new york yankee.
or perhaps it is just the market that makes those factors relevant.
Posted By : Anonymous
Greg, regarding your statement earlier, why hasn't...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 16:10:00
Greg, regarding your statement earlier, why hasn't the NBA banned Iverson's elbow sleeve, headbands, arm bands, face protectors (which do protect an individual, but then again, "one wonders how Jordan ever managed to play without a face mask), etc? Sources say that league management just doesn't like the "look of tights", but I think they're just threatened because their friends are making fun of them for letting NBA players wear "tights".
With regards to the comment, "one wonders how Jordan ever managed to play without tights", why don't you say, "one wonders how Jordan ever managed to play without a headband?", or one wonders how football players were able to play without visors or underarmour long sleeves underneath their pads. Plus, these type of compression tights weren't even available when Jordan played. Obviously, the league is trying to not look "sissy" but if you're a mature individual, I don't think you'll be too offended by "tights".
Lastly, I agree, it is their league, but maybe they should listen to people when 75% of Americans (according to an ESPN poll - 50000+ voters) don't understand why the league is banning tights (and I'm sure that not all of that 75% think that it's "cool looking").
Posted By : Anonymous
I'm an athlete at Washington and the department he...
Message posted on : 2006-04-03 - 22:32:00
I'm an athlete at Washington and the department here is doing the same sort of thing regarding Facebook accounts. We were all sent an e-mail before the New Year telling us to remove inappropriate photos. A month ago our team was given a heads up to clean up our profiles before the admistrators would look at it (they insuated there would be consequences if there were not "appropriate"). We have since been reminded of this, but I have not heard of anyone who has had repurcussions for their accounts. I know some athletes have removed their accounts as a result.
The most interesting thing is that many students wondered if the coaches were legally allowed to look at our profiles. There seems to be a false sense of security with such sites. The athletes, as well as other students, don't realize that they are posting their personal information on the internet.
Posted By : Martin
Since the Framers never played baseball, under a t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 01:07:00
Since the Framers never played baseball, under a textualist interpretation, is there a fundamental right to play baseball?
Posted By : Anonymous
Thanks for linking to that Casey Martin opinion. I...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 08:24:00
Thanks for linking to that Casey Martin opinion. I tend to think of Scalia as mere inches away from the scummiest of pond scum, but that was one where I sided with him. I particularly liked his slam on the designated hitter, and the California Bar Exam.
Posted By : tim in tampa
I think Clarett is a fair question -- why did the ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 09:14:00
I think Clarett is a fair question -- why did the Supreme Court deny cert given that there's a fairly obvious circuit split on the scope of the non-statutory labor exemption from antitrust law between the 8th Circuit (Mackey) and the 2nd Circuit ("fundamental policy of federal labor law")? Every time some county sheriff puts up a cross/commandment/menorah/crescent, it seems like the Supreme Court grants cert to decide the pressing case of whether to change three words in a constitutional test. But when there is a pressing antitrust issue like the scope of the non-statutory exemption, the court seems committed to avoiding clearing up the existing legal mumbo-jumbo.
Whether he personally feels bad about ruining Clarett's life (with assistance from the clerks that write the cert memos) might be a fair question.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Where to begin . . . I would ask one of the follow...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 10:25:00
Where to begin . . . I would ask one of the following:
(A) Regarding Title IX and sports: Should there be a way to limit Title IX effects on schools? I ask because there are very few, if any, schools that use "federal funding" on collegiate sports, and it seems to me that if no federal funds are used for that purpose, then Title IX should not apply to college sports.
(B) How would Title IX be applied to the ongoing idea of paying players a monthly stipend, what should the stipend's amount (not only who gets it but who DECIDES who gets the stipend) be based on, and how could a Title IX violation be avoided, short of declaring Title IX unconstitutional? For that matter, could Title IX be considered an undue burden on state schools and be used as a basis for a lawsuit by state-supported schools against the federal government (i.e. to force the feds to in effect pay up for forcing an unfunded mandate on the schools)?
(C) And on the latter point, why was the lawsuit by a number of minor-sport coaches and male athletes (led, I believe, by wrestling coaches) over what was truly unequal enforcement of Title IX--their sport was dropped at a large number of schools partially or wholly due to Title IX--tossed out under what seemed to be questionable reasoning of some sort?
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
a slightly different example, but the IOC has had ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 10:32:00
a slightly different example, but the IOC has had a similar policy for their Olympic athletes and coaches more than two years ago!!
See: http://www.networkworld.com/weblogs/layer8/006035.html
S.C.
Posted By : Anonymous
Have we all forgotten something here? Rollins' st...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 10:42:00
Have we all forgotten something here? Rollins' streak will be the longest if he hits in the first 21 games this season. Precedent has long been set in all the major sports--hear of the consecutive-games played record in each sport? That IS a multi-season record! Also, some other streaks: NBA had a streak of games for 10+ points in a game, MLB had consecutive decisions won and lost and Mr. Gagne's streak of consecutive saves [over a two-season period], NHL had a consecutive point-scoring streak, etc.
(For the record: Cal Ripken in baseball, A.C. Green in the NBA, Jim Marshall in the NFL, and I think Ron Francis in the NHL hold the respective records for consecutive games played--and NONE of those are shorter than 12 or 13 seasons!)
ALso, to Cal: THe reason there was a "refuals to test" was that the MLBPA kept refusing to even talk about any sort of that type of testing until the last four or five years; even threatening to go out on strike over it, claiming it was invsaion of privacy.
Remember, the MLBPA is the strongest players' union by far of the major sports.
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
I believe the lawsuit Barry Bonds filed is the fir...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 11:15:00
I believe the lawsuit Barry Bonds filed is the first salvo in building a civil rights case against the federal government. How else to expose the authors sources? Publishing a book with 200 unnamed sources is almost unassailable in a civil case. Question: With as much evidence as the authors of the book got directly from government sources that contradict Bond's sworn testimony, why has it been two years and no perjury charges have been filed against Barry Bonds, ala the Federal Government v. Martha Stewart? Common sense tells me that the stuff used to write this book was deemed either not credible, or not admissible by the federal government because any of it would have landed Barry Bonds in prison. They couldn't even get much the mistress' testimony admitted. We are left with a case that has no eyewitnesses, no direct evidence, and sworn testimony by Barry Bonds that remains unassailable.
Posted By : Collinswood
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 11:15:00
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Posted By : Collinswood
Melvin, I understand that the MLBPA was vehemently...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 14:29:00
Melvin, I understand that the MLBPA was vehemently opposed to steroid testing. However, the fact remains that Major League Baseball made no efforts to breach the subject with the union because they were in fact reaping financial benefits from the players abuse of performance enhancing drugs. I cannot imagine you would want to make the argument that Major League Baseball either didn't know about the drug use, or in the alternative knew about it but made an honest effort to rectify the situation only to be rebuffed by the union. The fact is that if Major League Baseball wanted to eradicate that drug use they would have at least given a better effort. If they had made the demands for testing publicly the MLBPA would have been crucified in the court of public opinion for striking to protect cheaters. The bottom line is that it is very obvious that MLB turned their collective heads to the steroid use because the quickest way for them to recover from the damage wrought by the strike was to have baseballs fly out of ballparks as frequently as possible and as far as possible.
Posted By : Walter
What is the appropriate role, if any, of antitrust...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 14:53:00
What is the appropriate role, if any, of antitrust law in regulating sports? For example, what aspects of NCAA regulation should be exempt from antitrust scrutiny, should the single entity defense be accepted, how should the rule of reason be applied to sports industry restraints, etc?
Posted By : matt mitten
I was nervous enough during my moot court argument...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 15:16:00
I was nervous enough during my moot court argument this year. I can't imagine doing it again in front of a Supreme Court Justice!
I don't know what specific question I would ask, but maybe I would ask him to talk a little bit about the legality and effect of the NCAA's policy on Native American mascots.
Posted By : robin
I know that the Pittsburgh Pirates organization ha...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 17:07:00
I know that the Pittsburgh Pirates organization has demanded that all players (or at least the minor leaguers) remove any myspace pages they may have. I do not know the reasoning, however.
John P.
Posted By : Anonymous
I would ask him how he feels about congress gettin...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 17:31:00
I would ask him how he feels about congress getting involved with sports, specifically baseball, when our government should take more responsibiliy for steroids since it is a controlled substance. Therefore the root of the problem does not lie in baseball, but rather in it is part of the drug war. As it is very unfair to blast off on baseball and their players.
Posted By : tommie
Um, yes, um well....if you are a professor in a la...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 20:53:00
Um, yes, um well....if you are a professor in a law school, and, um if you like sports, does that de facto make you a sports law professor?....and as a follow up, is sports law a real category of legal study, or is it not really...I mean, are there more jobs in admiralty law?
Posted By : Anonymous
This has nothing to do with Race, Money or Teams, ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-04 - 23:07:00
This has nothing to do with Race, Money or Teams, but everything to do with MLB's fetishizing of history. In every other sport they are looking for the next great player, but in baseball they are looking to minimize today's players.
Posted By : Michael
Interesting points Tim. I would have to agree tha...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 09:30:00
Interesting points Tim. I would have to agree that the problem is player quality. Americans are used to seeing the world's best players come here from abroad in baseball, the NBA, and NHL. In soccer, the opposite is true with our best leaving tom make more money and face tougher competition in europe. Sports fans here are used to seeing the best and won't accept anything less. Until we can reverse the talent flow across the Atlantic, immigration impact is nothing more than a secondary concern.
Posted By : Kent
I only have one thing to say!!!! ALLEN Iverson is ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 10:06:00
I only have one thing to say!!!! ALLEN Iverson is my most favorite player in the league.....so can he not get his name spelled correctly for your blog???
Posted By : Anonymous
The game has just not had the same commercial succ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 11:13:00
The game has just not had the same commercial success other sports have experienced.
With the game having such an international flair, it is impossible for this game to be conquored by the United States, which has a relatively young past in this sport.
What's preventing soccer from becoming a main sport in the U.S. (i.e. baseball, basketball, football) is the financial sources and the prestige. Things our European counterparts can offer, but at this point our MLS clubs can not.
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Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 17:40:00
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Posted By : Anonymous
I really appreciate all of you writing these excel...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 18:25:00
I really appreciate all of you writing these excellent questions. I spoke individually with Justice Scalia for a few minutes, but unfortunately did not get in any substantive questions (although we spoke very briefly about teaching sports law, and he agreed that it is a great topic for law students, since they tend to find the material very interesting and are thus very likely to pay attention in that class). He was very approachable and comes across as a nice guy who happens to be brilliant. It was a genuine honor to meet him.
But these questions will not go to waste:
1) I am going to try to the find the names of his clerks, contact them, and ask if Justice Scalia might be able to answer or two of the questions.
2) Your questions provide some great topics for law school papers or law review articles.
Posted By : Michael McCann
This is all great, but what about the continuing s...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 18:36:00
This is all great, but what about the continuing sports law scandal at Duke University? The coach quits, a player emails an obscene message indicating that he wants to skin other strippers, a community is divided ... it goes on and on ... what's the effect on recruiting? are ncaa suspensions in order? will this coach be able to ever get another job?
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2398409
where's andre smith when you need him????
The new york times, espn.com and pretty much every major media outlet is reporting on this on a daily basis. why not more discussion here? conflicts of interest?
Posted By : Anonymous
Shows how you can be at the top at one point and t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-05 - 22:33:00
Shows how you can be at the top at one point and then one mistake you can be at the bottom
Posted By : Paul
I think GM Bickerstaff needs to pick on some other...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 01:51:00
I think GM Bickerstaff needs to pick on some other player beside a guy who has a reputation of being meek. i'm sure if it were someone like Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis he might have not have been able to get away with what he said. You don't give up on a player after nearly 1 1/2 season, especially someone who is averaging nearly 10 points a game and someone who got injured. All in all there are many kind of General Managers in the NBA, there are the ones who are like Jerry West quite sure of himself, really cares for his players and are tactful and careful not to demean others , and ones who are tactless and blames others publicly for his or her own failure to lead.
Posted By : Anonymous
My fear is that this Duke lacrosse case may turn o...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 02:26:00
My fear is that this Duke lacrosse case may turn out similar to the Colorado and USAFA cases. How? Imagine if the DNA tests come back on the 46 lacrosse players--and there are NO matches. That has happened at Colorado, where of the seven rape cases reputed to be tied to "football players", not one went to trial due to either lack of evidence or stories which kept changing. In one such case, a woman claimed to have raped by two African-American men she said were "on the football team"; DNA tests came back negative on both and the case was dropped.
As for the cases at Air Force: well, well--it turns out that the cadets who went on Oprah to tell their stories either had changed their stories or left damning details about the accusers out!
(And don't even get me started on Katie Hnida; she won't name names on who supposedly attacked her even though she transferred to New Mexico. It's a shame the CU players that were on the team with Hnida at the time couldn't have sued under defamation of character or libel to force her to name names . . . or could they? Mr. McCann, any ideas?)
Of course, no one hears about that side of the stories . . . because it's sexier to go after a group of male athletes than to admit when your story was wrong or incomplete.
Posted By : Anonymous
There's probably not much discussion because invol...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 08:25:00
There's probably not much discussion because involving the Duke Lacrosse case because its a criminal law case involving athletes, not a sports law case.
Posted By : Kirk LeCureux
In a sport where one competitior has the slightest...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 09:25:00
In a sport where one competitior has the slightest advantage over the other, can mean the difference between a win and loss, should have universal standards that allow for fighters to be on the same playing field. This situation, if not, almost creates a competitive imbalance, which is not healthy for the sport.
Also, does this situation (weight standards and the lengths a competitor will take to make weight) go hand in hand with what plagues the sport of wrestling (the real kind), that has caused serious health issues in the past.
I know the state sporting commissions set the standards and regulate them, but does or can the fighting associations have the authority(i.e. World Boxing Council, etc.) to enforce stricter regulations and rules.
Posted By : Anonymous
What about the implications myspace/facebook has i...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 10:40:00
What about the implications myspace/facebook has in criminal investigations? I have heard that police search these websites for info. on campuses...
http://www.purdueexponent.com/mojavi/exponent/printview.php?id=2916
Posted By : Pete
As to any issues regarding Duke lacrosse, I would ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 15:28:00
As to any issues regarding Duke lacrosse, I would defer to Greg as he has already posted on the issue.
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2006/03/duke-lacrosse-attack-tragic-story-but.html
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Martin and anonymous,
Thank you so much for...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 15:44:00
Martin and anonymous,
Thank you so much for you input. I have gotten other contacts directly from athletes about their experiences with Athletic Departments mandating editing of their personal websites. It appears that administrations are emphasizing "appropriate representation" of the schools by athletes over anything else.
Pete, as to criminal matters, these websites appear to be fair game without a warrant unless such sites are "password protected" or "invitation required".
Posted By : Tim Epstein
If a GM has to denigrate a player after firing him...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 18:36:00
If a GM has to denigrate a player after firing him then this was a personal vendetta and not a business decision. This episode show more of Bickerstaff's lack of character then Kareem's alleged lack of effort. Seeing how Charlotte has accomplished nothing under Bickerstaff, this might be the start of excuses for the soon to fired GM.
Posted By : Anonymous
Bickerstaff's trying to shake up a losing team and...
Message posted on : 2006-04-06 - 21:00:00
Bickerstaff's trying to shake up a losing team and send a message going into the offseason. Whether that is "fair" to Rush is besides the point (though if there really is any potential liability for defamation, that should have given him pause). The fact that Brevin Knight, a respected veteran and leader on the team, spoke publicly in favor of it speaks volumes. Players are loathe to comment about other players - teammates or not - in a negative way. IMHO, that shows that the release was not only warranted, but welcomed by the players.
I agree that Bickerstaff is generally a poor GM (take a look at last year's draft when he seemed to consider only players from N. Carolina), but this move is justifiable.
Posted By : ken
Let's not forget that truth is a defense to a clai...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 01:59:00
Let's not forget that truth is a defense to a claim of defamation. If you think Bickerstaff's comments are injurious to Rush, I wonder what you'd think about his teammates and coaches talking about him dogging it in practice during depositions. The chance of a lawsuit here is less than zero.
Posted By : SC Editor
Wow, what a shocker...something in boxing is screw...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 11:25:00
Wow, what a shocker...something in boxing is screwed up. The truly shocking thing is that in that same article, the author cited a study that indicated that a boxer who gained a significant amount of weight between the weigh in and the fight was in fact LESS likely to win than one who didn't. It would seem that the fact is that not only is this practice exceedingly dangerous, it may actually put a fighter at a disadvantage do to the physiological strain he puts on his body.
This problem is just symptomatic of a sport with no direction and without a govening body that has any real authority to fix it.
Posted By : Kent
While some fighters do box "above" their weight, a...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 11:34:00
While some fighters do box "above" their weight, added pounds can mean more power behind a punch, and maybe more important, better ability to withstand an opponent's blow.
I would agree with your wrestling analogy as to the dehydration and rehydration issues. The NCAA made rule changes to address the issue in 1998 following the deaths of three student athletes attributed to dangerous dehydration techniques to meet weight. See the rule changes.
http://www.ncaa.org/releases/rules/1998/1998011301ru.htm
I don't see why any event sanctioned by an international committee cannot be governed by that committee's rules as long as such rules are "legal" in the country where competitions are taking place (See the International Olympic Committee).
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Good post, Mike. Also, I feel a little insulted b...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 13:05:00
Good post, Mike. Also, I feel a little insulted by the insinuation that it is the great mark of a fan to root for everyone on your team regardless of their flaws ("he may be a jerk, but he's our jerk").
While I cannot recall an occasion of booing a team player outside of Albert "Joey" Belle when he was on my Chisox, how can you support this behavior of Bonds, Giants fans? If there are any out there, please explain.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Hi. It's the Professional Boxing Safety Act, but a...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 13:42:00
Hi. It's the Professional Boxing Safety Act, but an honest mistake. Just fyi.
Posted By : Anonymous
I am surprised that an Attorney would support inte...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 14:23:00
I am surprised that an Attorney would support interrogating Barry Bonds in the "Russian way".
Not being a supporter of Mr. Bonds (I'm a Dodger Fan)but being a supporter of being considered innocent until proven guilty your comments imply a scary method to determing guilt.
By the way, a comment on the substance abuse investigation started by Bud Selig:
No subpoena power;
No Grand Jury authority;
No investigator imparitality;
No investigation.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Thanks for these comments. SC Editor is right: tru...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 19:12:00
Thanks for these comments. SC Editor is right: truth is a defense to a claim of defamation, and that is a good point. But do we know the truth here? And can we handle it? Let's not forget that Brevin Knight is the recipient of Bernie Bickerstaff's generous decision to pay him $4.4 million this season and $4.6 million next season, along with a buyout option for the 2007-08 season. He is also the recipient of the team's decision, with Bickerstaff's blessing, to annoint him as team captain. I'm sure he feels a strong sense of loyalty to Bickerstaff. So I might take he says about Bickerstaff's decisions with a grain of salt, at least as long as he remains in the employment of the Bobcats. And without other, more verifiable information, I don't think we can say that the chance of a defamation suit is "less than zero."
Posted By : Michael McCann
Richard: of course, this post was a bit tongue-in-...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 19:29:00
Richard: of course, this post was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Nevertheless, and like Tim, I find myself having a hard time feeling any sympathy for Barry Bonds, who may have knowingly lied to a grand jury, in addition to fans, teammates, and employers about his use of steroids. In my opinion, it shows an incredible arrogance and disregard for one's citizenship to lie under oath. And at a time when we have millions of people pleading with Congress for an opportunity to remain in this country and to be law-abiding citizens, I can't help but juxtapose them with Bonds, who apparently feels emboldened to disrespect this country and its legal system. And true, he does not deserve any less legal protection than any of us, but hopefully his money and fame don't buy him any more.
Posted By : Michael McCann
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Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 19:41:00
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Posted By : Anonymous
Michael:
Thanks for your reply. Mr. Bonds ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 22:17:00
Michael:
Thanks for your reply. Mr. Bonds does not deserve sympathy, just justice.
Do we know if he actually lied to the grand jury? He said he used some substance, but pleaded ignorance to what it was.
Yes, he has lied to the press and others but he has not been charged or indicted with any crime at this time.
Baseball fans and others are free to comment on what they think Mr. Bonds may have done. But until facts appear that demonstrate use of illegal substances we should be careful to condemn him based on rumors and emotions.
Posted By : Richard Mock
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Message posted on : 2006-04-07 - 22:45:00
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Posted By : Anonymous
How does a human head and feet grow several sizes ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 00:33:00
How does a human head and feet grow several sizes without the use of growth hormone?
Empirical evidence be damned. just look at the guy.
Posted By : brandon
Brandon:
Would YOU tell your lawyer "empiri...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 10:36:00
Brandon:
Would YOU tell your lawyer "empirical be damned" if it could help in case YOU were accused of something?
Human growth hormones (HGH) were not banned by baseball and are still legal for use, if I am not mistaken.
Posted By : Richard Mock
HGH is a producing substance in the body that allo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 12:01:00
HGH is a producing substance in the body that allows people to mature, it rises generally during the teenage years. Would using it for performance enhancement constitute drug abuse?
However, I found this interesting when I read Baseball Prospectus writer and Author Will Carroll's book "The Juice" and maybe someone would like to elaborate on this point:
---
page 126
"..the Controlled Substances Act does not expressly prohibit drug use. Drug use is a crime in certain circumstances, such as while one is a member of the military service, but it's not a crime per se under federal law.... [transition to about state drug laws].. When we asked Rick Collins about this he had to think a moment and then said, 'Arizona makes a distinction between use and possession. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others that do. It's exceedingly rare to criminalize use, and this isn't an unintentional oversight. Our drug laws have always focused on possession and sale, not use'."
Also goes on to say that cours have inferred that use implies possession in many cases...
---
Just throwing it out there.
Posted By : Ryguy
Corrected. Thanks.
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 13:08:00
Corrected. Thanks.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
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Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 14:37:00
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Posted By : Anonymous
Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I'm a f...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 16:07:00
Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I'm a fan of the way that Texas handles this issue. I'm not sure if it is dictated by state law, but public schools compete in competitions (both athletic and academic) against each other under regulation by the UIL (University Interscholastic League). Private/Religious Schools compete under TAPPS (Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools).
I've had discussions about how schools would fare in the other division. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter. Schools in each division get to compete for state championships on an equal playing field and there are more overall champions. I think it's a win-win situation.
I grew up in the state of Alabama where the public and private schools compete against each other and there were always rumors of recruiting players and other unfair advantages for private schools. I suppose the multiplier is an okay idea, but seperate divisions seem to leave no doubt about a level playing field.
Posted By : Anonymous
I've never even heard of such a thing. Regardless,...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 18:53:00
I've never even heard of such a thing. Regardless, half the point of competing on a public school team is the dream of beating the private schoolers. These rules are like a reverse 3/5 discrimination.
Posted By : tim in tampa
What the heck? Illinois is named after the Illini ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-08 - 22:54:00
What the heck? Illinois is named after the Illini Indian tribe. So why is the name Illini offensive? The same goes for every other team that is named after a Native American tribe. Team names are suppose to represent something honorable. Why would you name a team after something that is disgraceful? I mean, unless you want to get made fun of, you don't. Take the name the New England Patriots. This is an honorable name. How is Fighting Illini any different? It's a symbol of bravery, pride, honor, and integrity.
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Posted By : Anonymous
What about assigning male sports based on male enr...
Message posted on : 2006-04-09 - 17:05:00
What about assigning male sports based on male enrollment figures and female sports based on female enrollment figures? This way each school is competing agains other schools which draw approximately the same number of students of each gender to compete in each sport. While the number of students actually trying out for the sport will vary by school, it seems like the easiest way to keep the "competition" equal.
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Posted By : Anonymous
It's odd that US Football is headed in the opposit...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 04:03:00
It's odd that US Football is headed in the opposite direction to Australian Football. We've gotten rid of the ethnic clubs and brought in a new league: the A-League. Only 3 clubs from the old league remain and none are tied with any ethnic group. The old ethnic clubs have either folded or gone back to State Federations. They still cause problems too, but at least not on the national level. That could happen too in the MLS if they are not careful. On the positive side we get great crowds now. The top team crowd-average is just under 15,000 people per game, which is good given Australia's population of only 20 million.
Posted By : Anonymous
Hi,
I like the discussions going on with yo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 09:44:00
Hi,
I like the discussions going on with your blog. Would you like to trade links? I run http://www.thesportsbrothers.com -- game reviews, news and a forum.
Posted By : Anonymous
Great topic for discussion Tim. I've lived in Ill...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 10:25:00
Great topic for discussion Tim. I've lived in Illinois for four years now and the debate the past couple of years over a new multiplier rule has been quite intense. I grew up in Texas and personally agree with austin that publics and privates should compete separately for championships as I don't believe you can ever truly achieve a level playing field in this regard.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Truth isn't the only issue. It is also that Bicke...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 11:27:00
Truth isn't the only issue. It is also that Bickerstaff's statements may be mere expressions of opinion.
What if Bickerstaff had said "I think Kareen Rush is a poor NBA player"? That wouldn't be defamation, IMO. In this case, he has said -- though not in so many words -- "I think Kareem Rush does not give maximum effort." He's entitled to that judgment. Rush is entitled to refute it in the media (and I bet he will). It isn't a proveable fact (on either side).
Note also that Bickerstaff's statement was carefully worded. He said the team was about hard work. Then he said Rush didn't fit in. Although the inference is clear, he did not literally say Rush didn't give maximum effort.
I can't figure out why Phil Jackson would jump in the middle of this. What does he care, and why get embroiled in a controversy that he has no stake in? Because he likes Rush personally? That's a stupid reason to wage a media battle, and certainly not what his employers pay him for. Besides, Rush may have worked hard for L.A. but not very hard for Charlotte.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I live in Utah where we have open enrollment for p...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 12:04:00
I live in Utah where we have open enrollment for public high schools. The accusations of recruiting are pointed at the public schools, rather than the private. We have one school that, in the last 15 years or so, has dominated the state football championship, the private schools are rarely competitive here.
Posted By : Jeff
So long as such wagers are disclosed, allowing mon...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 18:40:00
So long as such wagers are disclosed, allowing monitoring for abuse, I see no reason in principle why they would not have the same beneficial incentivizing effects that options have in the executive compensation concept. Professor Standen's paper is enjoyable and thought provoking! I would argue that if such a plan were adopted, the benefits would need to be retroactively extended to Pete Rose in the form of an invitation to Cooperstown.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Very interesting concept.
I have not had th...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 21:59:00
Very interesting concept.
I have not had the opportunity to read this as yet. However, some questions come to mind such as: What is abuse(Betting to lose in a game you are playing in)? Others placing bets on your team to lose and then offering you a kick-back?
This idea raises some of the same issues the use of illegal substances does, such as the right to put into your body what you desire, are surgeries, physical training, etc. ok and the entire question: Why are some substances legal and some are not? The list of questions goes on and the civil rights of athlete's is at stake.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard--WHAT "civil right of athletes" is there t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 22:22:00
Richard--WHAT "civil right of athletes" is there to gamble? NONE.
My worry is that the first time any player, team, coach, executive, or neutral official is seen gambling on their own sport to the point of affecting the games (due to large losses by gambling), the sport would lose all credibility (do I need to point out the 1919 Black Sox scandal as an example?). I know someone would say the same about steroids and baseball; I agree.
If you allow gambling by players on sports--DON"T ALLOW THEM TO BET ON THEIR OWN SPORT. Period. (I'm NOT talking here about the bet of, say, a $100 bill or a dinner on the Super Bowl result; try something where the amounts add up to a significant percentage of the player's income or contract.)
=======================================
I do agree to some extent with Mr. Rapp's comments; since Rose's effective ban from the HOF was retroactive (or ex post facto), this would have to be the same.
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous:
Individuals have the right (civi...
Message posted on : 2006-04-10 - 23:27:00
Anonymous:
Individuals have the right (civil right) to spend their money as they see fit (to gamble).
Baseball is credible today. The Black Sox players, Pete Rose and other individuals are not.
Players should not be allowed to bet on games in which they participate. How is this controlled?
If player gambling is not allowed in games in which they play do we not create the possibility of an "underground player gambling" enterprise similar to the one we now have in the "war on drugs"? We may have this now.
Pete Rose should be considered for the Hall of Fame based on his performance as a a player and not what happened after his playing days were over.
Posted By : Richard Mock
I knows its trite, but I believe in the old saying...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 00:06:00
I knows its trite, but I believe in the old saying that "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Personally, if mere internal motivating factors don't push an athlete to succeed, I don't want to watch him play.
Ideally, money shouldn't even enter the equation when determining an athletes' amount of determination and drive. Sadly, it all too often does, which creates an environment where the player with the most money on the line plays a little harder to protect his investment. We should work to lessen this effect, instead of enhance it.
This is not so much a "legal" opinion as a gut reaction. Make of it what you will.
Posted By : Anonymous
I think this is a classic example of the legal/nob...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 00:15:00
I think this is a classic example of the legal/noble schism inherent in Western law. We are only concerned with tying people to a minimal, functional level of morality- higher levels that require us to do more are generally let alone. Hence the reason why it's generally not illegal to watch a strange kid wander off a cliff- no one wants to live next to that guy, but he hasn't broken the law.
What Barry Bonds most likely did was legal, but it was not noble. He disgraced the game with his actions. He used chemicals to pervert the record books and obviate the greats of the past. What if Aaron had pumped up? What if Mantle had taken HGH?
There are two sets of baseball players playing the game today- those who use steroids and those who don't. The latter see with clarity that the game is more important than their career statistics and nobly choose the classic path- the former, sadly, follow their inflated sense of self blindly down whatever destructive path it decides to take. They appear to have left the game I used to love trampled in their wake.
Posted By : Anonymous
Mr. Mock,
Under new baseball drug policy HGH is...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 00:16:00
Mr. Mock,
Under new baseball drug policy HGH is not legal. However, they do not test for it for whatever reason. Also, HGH is legal by prescription only and is typically used in underdeveloping teens not middle aged athletes.
Posted By : brandon
One positive outcome would be the elimination of "...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 08:14:00
One positive outcome would be the elimination of "garbage time." It's an interesting concept, but in practical terms I don't think it would work. Players would be incentivized to play to "the line" not to win. The increased likelihood of players and coaches (and owners) interacting with legal and illegal gambling entities is also troubling. Just think of the trouble Wayne Gretsky's wife would have gotten herself into.
Posted By : Bill
"Other" sports add revenue by helping to restrict ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 10:26:00
"Other" sports add revenue by helping to restrict supply. Without a requirement for other sports, any school could (and probably would) compete in basketball, which would potentially break the NCAA monopoly.
"Values" based on current revenue are contingent upon the monopoly system. If you're going to estimate value from specific sports, then do so based on an open and competitive market.
Posted By : Anonymous
MySpace has beefed up its security to protect/poli...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 13:05:00
MySpace has beefed up its security to protect/police users. It will be interesting to see if the increased monitoring will result in users abandoning the format for more permissive sites.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/technology/la-fi-myspace11apr11,1,1211960.story?coll=chi-news-hed
Posted By : Tim Epstein
I would agree with Bill in terms of playing to the...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 13:14:00
I would agree with Bill in terms of playing to the line, but garbage time would not necessarily improve if one team's incentive was to not score in playing the line. Unless "lines" are eliminated, teams will play for the line that often does not translate into a win or loss. If you spend some time in sports books during March Madness, the importance of said lines are palpable.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Brandon:
Thank you for the information on H...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 14:37:00
Brandon:
Thank you for the information on HGH.
Do we know if baseball players are using HGH? I do not know, just asking if this is performance enhancing for middle age baseball players.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Ditto for UF's other star, Al Horford, whose fathe...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 17:26:00
Ditto for UF's other star, Al Horford, whose father played in the NBA. Probably not as wealthy as Yannick Noah, but there's little pressure on the young Horford to lift the family out of poverty.
Posted By : Anonymous
Mr. Mock,
jon heyman from newsday.com has a goo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 18:31:00
Mr. Mock,
jon heyman from newsday.com has a good article on HGH. here is the link:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-sphey0331,0,1786797.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists
Posted By : brandon
It should be interesting to see what decision Tyru...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 18:40:00
It should be interesting to see what decision Tyrus Thomas makes. He comes from a single parent home that struggles with financial problems and is predicted to be a lottery pick.
Thomas has been playing with the same teammates for a long time and might decide that loyalty is more important than money. With a new trend of players staying closer to home we might see players staying in school longer. just a thought
Posted By : brandon
Saying that a player turning pro is the only oppor...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 18:47:00
Saying that a player turning pro is the only opportunity to rise out of poverty is a harsh and probably inaccurate statement. If a players stays at a university and earns a degree, the player will be able to command more salary in a career outside of sports. I understand that going pro may pay more upfront and maybe even over the long run, but saying that it is the only opportunity to succeed in life is not giving much credit to the athlete and his/her intellectual ability.
Posted By : Anonymous
I don't think that anyone is shortchanging the ath...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 19:59:00
I don't think that anyone is shortchanging the athlete and his/her intellectual ability. It's more of a statement about the difficulty of rising out of poverty and the amount of money available in pro sports. Even with a college degree, someone from a poor background (and therefore a vastly inferior K-12 education) may still very well fail in the real world. You can say the same for any college graudate, of course, but the risk of failure is particularly acute for those from economically depressed backgrounds.
An intersting contrast to Noah is Kobe Bryant, who went straight from a toney Philadelphia suburb to the NBA. But Kobe is exceptional not only for his talent but for his competitiveness. He didn't want to waste any time competing against inferior talent and was set on getting to the peak of his profession as quickly as possible. Most 17 year-olds aren't so confident (arrogant?).
Posted By : ken
What about a list of players who contemplate comin...
Message posted on : 2006-04-11 - 20:22:00
What about a list of players who contemplate coming out, then go back to school, only to get drafted lower or not at all. Some players that seem like they would have went higher had they left earlier are, Chris Porter from Auburn, Ryan Gomes from Providence, Chris Taft from Pitt etc..
Posted By : tommie
Ken,
I wonder if, had Kobe gone to college, he ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 05:51:00
Ken,
I wonder if, had Kobe gone to college, he might of acquired some maturity. Some ability to see that his talent and competitiveness, while impressive, might not be the sun of the basketball firmament. Maybe he would have learned to play on a team, that team is spelled t-e-a-m and not k-o-b-e. Maybe he would have learned how to be a decent enough person not to (allegedly) molest a woman in a hotel room and chase away one of the greatest centers of the last quarter-century.
Then again, there are lots of college graduates who remain immature and incapable of adult behavior once they enter the league.
On the issue of poverty and basketball, I would commend Darcy Frey's excellent book, The Last Shot.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I am surprised no one mentioned horse racing and t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 13:23:00
I am surprised no one mentioned horse racing and the parallels it can draw to such a discussion. There, not only is betting encouraged, everyone - from owners to jockeys (except horses) is almost expected to put some dough down.
Posted By : DCThrowback
It would only work with individual sports, in whic...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 13:37:00
It would only work with individual sports, in which players are already incentivized to win the purse.
For team sports, how do you value a role player? Who decides who gets into the game? If the pitcher less bet on the game than the catcher, who decides which pitches would be thrown.
Posted By : Anonymous
headache smith didn't gamble to throw games.....he...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 14:38:00
headache smith didn't gamble to throw games.....he only shifted the point spread. Invariably an athlete will attempt to manipulate the points and his team will lose because the athlete is NOT in complete control of the line(he has teammates and competitors). this could only work for "straight bets", where their is no points spread. interesting otherwise!!!
Posted By : Anonymous
it could, conceivabley, be feaseible in a "point s...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 14:47:00
it could, conceivabley, be feaseible in a "point spread system" so long as the player bet on his team to cover. however, i don't like the possible results. what if MJ's championship winning shot over Craig Elo never happened b/c some role player had some cash on the game and he thinks "its my money so its my shot". No dice.
Posted By : Anonymous
I think such a system would work 99% of the time w...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 16:35:00
I think such a system would work 99% of the time with no problems. However, the remaining 1% of games would create disaster.
The assumption is that the individual's motivation of financial gain parallel's the team's motivation to win the game. This would usually, but not always, be the case.
For instance, a quarterback who bet on his underdog team to cover the spread would face a definite conflict when he's leading a game-ending drive for the win (but already having covered the spread). Would he be so quick to try the desperation pass for the winning touchdown, knowing that if it's intercepted, the other team could end up covering the spread?
A baseball manager would face an insurmountable conflict if he's wagered on his team to win tomorrow's game, but in today's game he's faced with the choice of wearing out his bullpen in a close game.
Would the proposed rules allow betting on individual statistics in a team sport? There would be a definite conflict between the individual and team goals if a point guard has wagered on himself scoring at least a certain number of points. Same with a quarterback betting on his passer rating when his team would be better off emphasizing the running game.
Posted By : GaryLippow
I believe this would not work. Crimes like gamblin...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 18:36:00
I believe this would not work. Crimes like gambling and prostitution are illegal for a reason. It is not taxes, it is because it leads to violence. Now, some can be regulated, ala Las Vegas, but the structure behind this is too bare and there is too much room for error.
Players in team sports may not give their all, may not want to risk injuries when up big, coaches will never go for it because it forces them to change their coaching style. This would create so much chaos on a team that there would be less chemistry than a Terell Owens filled team. There is no way you can get a team full of players who will go for this, let alone a league.
As in real life gambling, there will be too many confrotational problems and questioning of desire, and too many trade demands.
Posted By : tommie
I think that if you posted pictures around a ballp...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 22:11:00
I think that if you posted pictures around a ballpark of what happens when you use chaw, people might stop using pretty quickly.
The pictures of people missing entire portions of their jaws are pretty disturbing.
Posted By : Satchmo
Will: I actually thought about posting the picture...
Message posted on : 2006-04-12 - 22:42:00
Will: I actually thought about posting the pictures of Rick Bender and Gruen Von Behrens on the Blog, but decided not to because of how discomforting their pictures are. But maybe you are right, maybe they should be seen so that people can see what can happen with smokeless tobacco.
Posted By : Michael McCann
as a former college hoops player, i love it.... wi...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 03:31:00
as a former college hoops player, i love it.... with some quantifiers...oh, and college players should be allowed to bet too, since they don't get paid (and don't give me that "you get an education" crap.)
1) if the other team is favored, you must bet "to win" and cannot bet the spread.
2) if your team is favored, you can bet the spread only.
3) all gambling is public, and all winnings reported to the IRS, and all wagers are sin-taxed with the funding going to education & gambling education
4) limit the amount allowable on a bet to X amount of a player's salary
5) all players who win must donate X percentage of the winnings to a charity
6) all the previous weeks' bets must be published in the daily paper, so fans/gamblers have an idea what the players perception of the game and the line are.
makes for interesting food for thought.. i'm sure i could come up with more thoughts on this with more time... i'll tell you one good sidenote, it makes a hell of a lot more sense for matt hasselbeck and big ben to publicly make a bet on the SB than the mayors of the two towns.
Oh... but that of course reminds me-- officials should not be allowed to bet--- nor live in the town of either team in the SB, unlike this last one. Sorry... still pissed Hawk fan, and i digress.
Posted By : Anonymous
crud... i forgot to mention to tommie-- when you s...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 03:44:00
crud... i forgot to mention to tommie-- when you said "Crimes like gambling and prostitution are illegal for a reason. It is not taxes, it is because it leads to violence" do you have any evidence of this?
I seem to recall very little violence in the streets of the Red Light Districts in many major European cities. (I never participated, but as a curious American, had to see the "girl in the window" display format.)
Tommie, all things are illegal because it benefited somebody somewhere to make it so. Right or wrong, ethical or unethical it is irrelevant.
Now, as for coaches being put in quandaries--- i don't see it. Coaches are put in quandaries anyway, everyday. I've stood in front of a student body and said we were going to beat our crosstown rival. I coached the game that way... if i wanted to take my measly stipend and multiply it--- why shouldn't i be able to?
and i've been part of the baseball staff deciding if we should play our CS Fullerton signed pitcher in the CIF Quarters/Finals or only the Semis. We chose quarters in a game we could have won anyway, and we lost in the Semis. These are decisions coaches make... money... would only make it sweeter.
finally, i seriously doubt anyone would propose this with individual statistics in mind-- only "team betting." Hell, it could help team chemistry just as likely as hurt it. And those role-players that don't make a lot-- they would be more likely to support the star late in the game if they get an extra 5G's if he hits that FT.
chemistry is all random and variable... not a not a known factor in either direction.
Posted By : Anonymous
Several crimes that many people believe to be smal...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 09:38:00
Several crimes that many people believe to be small are illegal because they lead to other crimes, more serious crimes.
I do not have direct evidence on hand but I have had discussions with college professors and law professors on this. If you take prostitution that leads to violence and drugs. Gambling leads to violence and other crimes that stem from this, it is an addiction and many people cannot handle it.
It is an interesting study, which I heard was the main reason for statutes banning many crimes. If you think about it a lot of crimes stem to other crimes.
Posted By : tommie
I don't see this being a big issue in the future, ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 10:58:00
I don't see this being a big issue in the future, with the tobacco industry's unlimited money and resources to lobby either the league or MLBPA into inactivity.
I can see MLB creating a "Snuff Awareness" Program to bring awareness to the consequences these products offer, but to actually ban the practice of chewing tobacco is ludicrous.
Of course, I can also picture the league with the help of MLBPA attempting to restrict the use of snuff to certain times or areas in or during the game, as well as trying to prevent products or players actually dipping from being shown on the television broadcasts.
Posted By : Anonymous
Interesting post. My personal opinion is that tob...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 11:02:00
Interesting post. My personal opinion is that tobacco use in baseball is not as prevalent as it used to be. Regarding the Harvard study, I wonder how they reached a conclusion that the chewing tobacco industry reaped exactly $6.4 million in free advertising.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Odd to think staying in school and continuing a pa...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 12:54:00
Odd to think staying in school and continuing a path to education would be a worse way to escape poverty.
What's worse is the theory that most wealth is accumulated by serendipity. A fool and his million dollar NBA contract are often quickly parted.
Posted By : WeRDevos
I always find this an interesting argument, as mos...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 13:08:00
I always find this an interesting argument, as most of the people weighing in and making judgements about the young men turning pro NEVER would have had the same opportunity or have lived in the same circumstances. It's all about opportunity cost. The cost faced by these students is something almost no commentator has ever faced.
As a previous posted noted (tommie), it's not always the "best" thing to do, for draft status, etc. Injury is always a possibility and for those whose familes are not as well off, it could change their situation quite dramatically.
College will still be an option, should they choose it. Going pro isn't. While some students will enjoy and relish the extra year, for others it will be a struggle.
If I'd had the opportunity to "go pro" in something, taking millions of dollars as a sophomore, it would have been hard to say no--of course, those opportunities don't exist for female economists.
Posted By : Anonymous
Funny, I have been posting the same thoughts on No...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 13:10:00
Funny, I have been posting the same thoughts on Noah on truehoop.com. A Grant Hill is another great example of this. He could have went pro before his senior year but instead stayed because there was no financial need for him to leave school. He was going to be well off even if he didn't play in the NBA. Same can be said for Noah. NBA fans need to understand that socio-economics is a determing factor of most of the decisions and actions of these players...We should all consider that before judging them
Posted By : Nate
werdevos posted: "A fool and his million dollar N...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 14:36:00
werdevos posted: "A fool and his million dollar NBA contract are often quickly parted."
Do you have the data which suggests this, or is this just your own opinion?
Posted By : Lance
FYI, MLB and the union have worked to educate play...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 16:08:00
FYI, MLB and the union have worked to educate players about the dangers of smokeless tobacco for years.
Banning it? The correct time to ban something would be the same time it's banned by law for every other segment of society.
Professional athletes -- like politicians, entertainers, doctors, lawyers and investment bankers -- should be held to neither higher nor lower standards than anyone else. They should be held to the same standards.
Next week, let's talk about alcohol!
Posted By : Chris D.
When I was refering to the "Snuff Program", the pr...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 16:56:00
When I was refering to the "Snuff Program", the program I feel would be more beneficial to children and young adults and actually meant MLB would use them for the target audience. I am aware that each spring training, speakers do come to each teams' respective camp and discuss the consequences, but obviously the effectiveness of such speeches and discussions are marginally at best. At least, targeting a younger generation could possibly educate an age range that is more impressionable.
Also, if anything the league and MLBPA can say to Congress, is they have attempted a somewhat (hopefully) effective policy/program to curb a potential hazardous health issue (unlike steroids, where they basically turned their backs..)
Posted By : Anonymous
ANONYMOUS:
Good points on most criteria on Marc...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 23:02:00
ANONYMOUS:
Good points on most criteria on March 13th post except numbers four and five. If a players is going to risk their money they should be able to decide how to spend their money, not the government.
Good point about politicans placing bets on "local" outcomes. I BET Ministers, Priests, Rabbis, etc. place a friendly wager from time to time.
Any more comments about the "girl in the window" experience. This is more interesting than the betting issue. Just kidding.
The so called "victimless crimes" and do they add to violence comment. I, too would like to see empirical evidence that supports this contention.
If a secondary individual commits a crime because they observe another (primary)
individual doing so does not make the original party responsible for the secondary individual commission of the crime. Individual responsibility (not to commit crimes)is needed here.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Michael:
It is my understanding that a memb...
Message posted on : 2006-04-13 - 23:14:00
Michael:
It is my understanding that a member of the grand jury can testify to what they said but not to what other members said?????
Can a grand jury member testify in court that they believed Mr. Bonds lied under oath? Or just report same to the prosecutor? And then can the prosecutor use this "testimony" against Mr. Bonds?
Posted By : Richard Mock
"Several crimes that many people believe to be sma...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 06:08:00
"Several crimes that many people believe to be small are illegal because they lead to other crimes, more serious crimes."
Hmm... eating an appetizer leads to eating more food in a main course. Things lead to other things... but... many crimes are only crimes in one local governance but not another--drinking AND driving ages both vary from nation to nation, and (not sure if they still do) from state to state.
"I do not have direct evidence on hand but I have had discussions with college professors and law professors on this."
Well, are you taking the "they are law professors so they must be correct" stance? If so, question, my friend, question.
"If you take prostitution that leads to violence and drugs."
Slippery slope. very slippery. Sometimes it simply leads to orgasms and companionship for a set period of time with money trading hands, no more no less. In fact, often "Escorts" which are essentially higher paid prostitutes work exclusively with rich and powerful clientele. So does the prostitution lead to violence and drugs, or does it lead to tax evasion and money laundering?!? Or does it lead to a college education for a retired escort?
hmmm... not so black and white...
"Gambling leads to violence and other crimes that stem from this, it is an addiction and many people cannot handle it."
So is gluttony, so is masterbation. Why don't we make laws to outlaw these forms of addiction? (of course i'm sure some states have them for the latter example.)
Why don't we outlaw drinking? Leads to more violence than pot, and is more physiologically addictive...
"If you think about it a lot of crimes stem to other crimes."
Not true. Criminals will commit a lot of crimes. Regardless of how many laws are enacted, the same group of people will often do pretty much anything. In education we have the 90/10 factor. 90% of the problems are caused by 10% of the students. You can make more or fewer rules, and it is irrelevant-- the same core group will be causing the disruptions.
As for gambling-- I've gambled many many times in my life, and unlike most gamblers I'll admit that I've lost more than I've won. But man, those wins ARE SWEET!!! Did my gambling lead to me committing more crimes ('cause let's be honest, even the "office March Madness pool" is illegal. Ask Nuehiesel.)
Richard, you are probably right about the governmental aspects of my points... i threw them together rather quickly, but as you may ascertain from my posts i'm pretty much a libertarian at heart. well, a socialist libertarion, if that is possible....
Posted By : Tyler
Mike,
My guess is your more likely to see t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 10:51:00
Mike,
My guess is your more likely to see the academically-challenged 18-year-old utilize this rule and enter the NBDL rather than play at a junior college, as opposed to the star player (i.e. Greg Oden, O.J. Mayo). I don't think just one year in college will be sufficient to deter the stars from taking the Carmelo Anthony-route.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Richard,
Thank you for those questions. In ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 12:38:00
Richard,
Thank you for those questions. In the unlikely event the perjury charges were to go to trial, the prosecution would focus on material witnesses who could impugn Bonds' sworn testimony. For instance, Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada could be called to testify (although their testimony would have to survive hearsay challenges by Bonds' attorneys) as could Greg Anderson and the various BALCO characters. Through discovery, the prosecution would also try to establish that Bonds knowingly made false remarks, and given his interests in the case, one may be able to infer intent from knowingly-false statements.
As to whether Bonds was confused by the questions or his answers, both would be much harder to show, although the court transcript may reveal whether he seemed confused by the questions or whether his answers seemed disconnected to the corresponding questions. Even so, the burden of establishing Bonds' state of mind and cogency go the prosecution's usual difficulty in succeeding in a perjury charge, and why perjury is more threatening than hurting.
As to the reaction of the grand jurors and their observations of Bonds while he testified, that is an extremely interesting point. Usually jurors can testify if there are allegations of juror and prosecutorial misconduct in a criminal conviction, but it is more generally uncommon that jurors are later called as witnesses, and there are immunities that advance that effect.
Posted By : Michael McCann
"Odd to think staying in school and continuing a p...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 14:31:00
"Odd to think staying in school and continuing a path to education would be a worse way to escape poverty."
Not odd at all.
Say you are a player who's pretty much guaranteed to be a high first round pick. Sure, you can stay and earn a degree, but you can also go back to college after your playing career - just because you're not eligible to play, doesn't mean you're not eligible to attend school.
Also, a college degree is only worth the paper it's printed on. If a kid grew up poor, chances are, he hadn't acquired life skills and safety nets that middle class kids take for granted. Which is to say, although a college degree certainly helps, it's certainly not a one-way ticket from poverty to middle class.
In contrast, a player taken in the first round is guaranteed a couple of million dollars, a 3-to-4-year window to work for the next payday, and if it hasn't worked out at the end of the rookie contract, then you still have a nice chunk of capital to start your next career or go back to school.
If you have a safety net like Noah and Grant Hill, great, they can risk another year of unpaid ball to make themselves more valuable. But if you're Tyrus Thomas and your value will never be higher and you don't have a safety net, it would be reckless and idiotic not to take the money now.
Posted By : spinachdip
Chad,
I think you are right, at least for m...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 15:02:00
Chad,
I think you are right, at least for most stars. While I imagine there could be some stars who are so financially-hard pressed that one year in the NBDL might be better than one year of no income in college, it's hard to see how most would view NBDL life as all that enticing. And as you note, an academically-challenged 18-year-old would seem like a much more probable candidate to take advantage of this new rule.
But with the NBA's plans for expanding the NBDL, it will be interesting to see where new NBDL teams are placed, and if they are placed in larger media markets (with perhaps the possibility that NBDL players will become more recognized, along with the corresponding effect of NBDL teams becoming more desirable employers).
Posted By : Michael McCann
I grew up in Washington state (publics and private...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 17:13:00
I grew up in Washington state (publics and privates compete against each other) but now live in Virginia (separate associations and championships). I've always assumed that separate associations in Virginia were a southern reaction to integration of public schools. Am I wrong?
Posted By : Ray
As someone who lives next door in Iowa, the multip...
Message posted on : 2006-04-14 - 19:54:00
As someone who lives next door in Iowa, the multiplier debate in Illinois has intrigued me enough to follow it. I'm not a math major, but I do find the mathematical solution to it very confusing.
But to review how Iowa has done this, they do not use multipliers on private schools, since there are not many here. Iowa uses a system for the post-season playoffs by using a point system for football and basketball in all the classes (1-A smaller to 4-A large schools). If a 4-A school defeated a 3-A school for example, the 4A school would not receive as many points as they would have versus a fellow 4A school.
It's convoluted, but it would be fair for me to look up the arrangement and read it before adding more to this discussion.
Posted By : Anonymous
I disagree with Chris D. Baseball players...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 00:28:00
I disagree with Chris D.
Baseball players are role models; they've accepted millions of dollars to take a job that makes them figures in the public spot light. They have a responsibility to carry on the integrity of the game. Does chewing impact the play level, no. But it does have an impact/influence on the fans, who are part of the game.
By accepting their contracts, they should realize they are being compensated for more than just their playing ability. Fans idolize players. Any business, in this case teams/the league, have a moral duty to protect the interest of their stakeholders. I consider employees (players) and fans to be stakeholders of the game of baseball. I believe the benefits of a no tobacco policy outweigh the costs or subjecting young fans to a habit that is unhealthy.
Players can be held to a higher standard than others, it's part of their compensation.
Posted By : George S
Tommie:
Yes, some crimes do lead to other c...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 11:39:00
Tommie:
Yes, some crimes do lead to other crimes. When these crimes become violent then punish the violent crime. Let's look for better ways to deal with the "victimless" crime (drug use, prostitution, etc.)
What evidence do you have that if prostitution were legal more people would turn to it? Some prostitutes do go to college and some even complete college.
The real point of your post is the last where you say that athlete's should not be allowed to gamble.
How do you deal with surrogate or proxy gamblers and athlete's as "second class" citizen's (denied the right to gamble).
What other rights would you take away?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard,
Atheltes cannot be given a legal r...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 12:53:00
Richard,
Atheltes cannot be given a legal right to gamble without giving every other citizen the same right to gamble. They are not second class citizens, in several aspects of life they are 1st class and everyone else is second class. There is no reason they should be given above the law status in anything.
Following through with something like this would bring chaos. There is too much potential for things to progess negatively.
What good comes out of gambling? For some people that can handle it, it may be fun. For the people I know, especially in college I have seen more young people get in trouble by betting money they do not have and older people ruinging their lives along wiht their families. These are not good examples to set for young America. You do not want to send the message that gambling is good to people. While some people can handle it, this would be a terribly bad idea.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie:
I respect your desire to
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 13:27:00
Tommie:
I respect your desire to help others by imposing restrictions and enforcing laws that enter the area of "personal" decision making.
In my opinion I would leave these decisions to the individual, as long as they do not harm others.
Your position is yours and mine is mine.
Let's agree to discuss other aspects and issues in the sports world and not get into a "shouting match" that will not change either of ours minds.
Posted By : Richard Mock
First off, the theory of why some crimes were made...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 16:52:00
First off, the theory of why some crimes were made illegal was told to me by a ciminologist/college professor/ex-NYPD 30 year veteren who has done studies on the field. I am not saying I agree with it 100 percent, but it does make sense. And we are talking when the laws were created, which was many years ago. Now we are able to have SOME structured and monitored operations of these illegal crimes.
There is a difference between an escort and a prostitute. The point is that some of these people who engage in criminal activities are bound to engage in other criminal activites. Just like many people refer to marijuana as harmless while others see it as a gateway drug.
In New York when Guliani was elected mayor he cleaned up the streets of NYC. His philosophy (one I agree with) is to rid the city of all the small petty crimes. He stopped the squeegee men from operating in NYC. He took the prostitutes off of the street. By taking care of small problems like that he cut down felonies by 5,000 per week. He turned NYC from a dirty and dangerous city back to one of the top tourism destinations for people all over the world. Now granted these people were already breaking law, police never enforced anything against these individuals, so essentialy while doing something illegal in a way they were not since nobody would enforce the laws.
Of course there are going to be people who only commit one crime. But even if it leads to a small percentage of people committing other crimes, that is a lot of different crimes being committed against a lot different people. And objection number one is to protect society. Think of how many people, innocent people, would suffer by a percentage as small as even 10 percent.
As for athletes and rights, I do not care who you are , everyone in this country that is a law abiding citizen should have the same rights. If you work for a private company or organization then they have every right to limit what they think is reasonably harmful.
Athletes gambling on sports is also similar to insider trading on the stock market. Think about how much "inside" information they are able to obtain. There can be a lot more correlation between atheltes gambling on sports and the stock market.
Posted By : tommie
But one thing that both I and somebody earlier sta...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 18:47:00
But one thing that both I and somebody earlier stated is that the athletes wagers should be openly and immediately viewable by the public. The public then is privy if not to the knowledge, at least to what the athlete that has the knowledge is comfortable with.
I would suggest the same legality and consistency by having every trade public as well... could be onerous, but it would help give people a better idea what the insiders think. Plus when a current CEO trades off shares, the regular joe would probably like to have that info public.
Your NY example is a good one, and go buy "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell-- a worthy investment for any college student. Well worth the read. (And this is an English Teacher/Sociology Teacher telling you this.)
Also, I'm not saying your professors are wrong and I am correct... I'm saying that his experience has led him to what he sees as an obvious conclusion. My experience leads another direction. A person in Sweden would probably see it differently as well. We are a product of our society, as is our rationale. I've lived in WA state, Cali, and currently Denver, and have seen very different attitudes in all. Being a huge sport fan, I have also witnessed a unique perspective from Yankee fans as well-- as if it is their god given right to win all the time. I say it is a product of unfair resources and a lack of a salary cap.
I have never been to NY. I can't say I know NY any more than anyone who has seen a lot of TV and movies.
I'm certain your NY professor is a smart man... keep listening to him. But just don't-- and remember this is a teacher telling you this--- just don't always believe him! Find your own logic and reason. He would probably want you to do the same.
Unless he is an egocentric professor... i've had a couple that route as well. But true educators want you to come to your own logical conclusions-- not spout back to them what they already lectured. Students seems to fail to grasp that far too often.
Good luck Tommie, and enjoy college. It is the best times of your life.
Posted By : tyler
Excellent post as usual, Mike. Your question goes...
Message posted on : 2006-04-15 - 23:30:00
Excellent post as usual, Mike. Your question goes to paternalism, doesn't it? Should pro sports establish certain limits to "protect" the players, such as age limits on draftees? Or should pro sports let the players fend for themselves in true free market fashion? This seems to be the same issue from a different angle.
I have little doubt that 3% is a huge return on the time and effort expended by agents, so I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced. But I increasingly have a paternalistic view of the law, including contract law. (I am inevitably leaving the more idealistic and libertarian days of my youth behind me).
If most NBA players really do live paycheck to paycheck, maybe we could be really paternalistic and put half their wages in escrow for after their playing careers, and only allow agents to collect their 3% fees on the non-escrow amount. I am sure that would encounter enormous problems from a variety of angles, not least of all the players and agents--but if we are talking about professional sports unions with collective bargaining in the "best interests" of the players represented, then why not?
Posted By : Gregory W. Bowman
Gregory:
Are you talking just about pro ath...
Message posted on : 2006-04-16 - 13:22:00
Gregory:
Are you talking just about pro athlete's when you suggest the escrow account idea? Why not janitors, CEOs, teachers, lawyers, etc.and anyone else who may "live paycheck to paycheck"?
Were has the self-reliance idea and taking care of your own personal affairs gone?
If a pro players does not agree with the 3% he/she can negotiate a lesser fee or even hire an attorney to work on his/her behalf(an idea I agree with, by the way).
What is the minimum amount a first year rookie will make in the NBA? Probably far more that the afore-mentioned occupations.
Posted By : Richard Mock
There was an interesting segment on ESPN's Outside...
Message posted on : 2006-04-16 - 15:56:00
There was an interesting segment on ESPN's Outside the Lines Easter Sunday morning featuring Vince Young's decision to hire people close to him and that he trusted. His friend/agent is blamed for poor combine preparation, poor instructions for the Wonderlic test and numerous other things associated with Young's journey from college to the NFL.
Lon Babby also had some interesting points on the show as did Jason Whitlock.
Posted By : tommie
This is far from a "paternalism issue". This isn't...
Message posted on : 2006-04-16 - 20:42:00
This is far from a "paternalism issue". This isn't an issue of, for example, govt. regulations to protect people from harming themselves. This is an issue about educating and informing players about doing what's in their collective best interests and the union's duty to carry that out. Unlike any other industry, the players have the ability practically and legally to agree upon and set the fees they are willing to pay. In other words, the players are not legally required to have market forces dictate the amount of the agent fees. Agents have been successful in persuading players that they need at least a 3-5% commission to cover their expenses...which is B.S.!! What the agents should do is just bill the player for the actual amount of expenses incurred (it's not that complicated). And as NFLPA Pres. Vincent said in the article, this issue about agent fee reductions isn't going away. It's just the beginning of further reductions, and I predict it will happen in other sports as well.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
It seems to me that the fees earned by agents are ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-17 - 12:16:00
It seems to me that the fees earned by agents are not commensurate with the amount of benefit conferred upon the athlete. And, the agents are not properly incentivized.
If the ranges of salaries were $0 to $10 million, then it would make more sense to have a system where the agent earns a percentage of the salary. But when the salary range for a particular player might be $1.5 million to $2.0 million, there isn't much incentive for the agent to go the extra mile. The agent can do practically nothing and earn 3% on $1.5 million ($45,000) or he can work his butt off and he may get the player $2.0 million (and himself an extra $15,000 in commission).
How hard is an agent going to work for the extra $15,000, particularly when the extra $15,000 is no sure thing? Well, if it takes two hours, he'll do it. If it takes 10 days, he's got other clients to worry about.
I'm definitely no expert on agent fees, but from the post it appears the 3% is a maximum fee. I suspect, however, that the maximum fee quickly becomes the standard fee in the world of sports agents.
Is there a proposal to have a percentage cap on fees, but make it solely a cap, rather than a system of compensation? Why not just do away with agent fees based on a percentage of the contract?
We could force agents to charge clients the way lawyers and accountants do...either on a fixed fee basis or based on billable hours? (The billable hours concept would present its own problems with respect to accountability).
Maybe that would not properly incentivize the agents, because there's certainly an evident problem with lawyers and accountants.
So how about permitting a fixed fee for the "base" work of an agent plus a smaller commission based upon the value added to the negotiations of a player salary? This would protect the player against an agent reaping enormous profits for little value added, but would also incentivize the agent to earn something beyond the base fee.
If the lowest offer for a player is $1 million, why should the agent get 3% of that? The player is going to get $1 million even without an agent. The agent ought to get a base fee, and then maybe 3% of amounts the agent is able to negotiate in excess of the $1 million.
I agree with Rick, that the union leadership is dropping the ball. There is no reason the union could not make education a #1 priority, and simultaneously put its foot down on the fees agents are charging. The problem with leaving it to market forces is that market forces presume an informed market, and I don't think that's what we have with pro athletes.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Goodness Gracious! How about this: Freedom of Cont...
Message posted on : 2006-04-17 - 12:41:00
Goodness Gracious! How about this: Freedom of Contract; Private Regulation; State Regulation; Federal Regulation (SPARTA); Freedom of Choice; and, of course, Freedom to be jealous of agent fees.
Posted By : Anonymous
I may be a little off-topic, but I can think of pl...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 03:01:00
I may be a little off-topic, but I can think of plenty of situations where 3% is acceptable in my opinion for a sports agent.
Looking at Vince Young, I think a 3% fee to someone who prepares you properly is more than appropriate. A 3% fee to a good agent can pay for itself.
Young hired some family friend that apparently didn't know enough to coach him on preparing for the combine. Any agent worth a dang would've had Vince taking a wonderlic every day so he got comfortable (remember the LSAT that probably most of you prepared for?). Vince was being talked about as possibly the #1 pick, until a single red flag popped up.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if Young were to drop 1 or more spots because he didn't have an agent that could do the most for him in coaching/prep pre-combine. I would bet there were other areas that he may not have been overly impressive. Did the family friend/agent coach him on how to approach interviews with the NFL teams? Would a good agent know the ins and outs of dealing pre-draft with NFL teams?
There's gonna be plenty more than a 3% drop in the value of his contract. It's a small fee to pay for someone who can get you taken 1 or more positions better in the draft.
Posted By : cj
Chapelheel - good point about the incremental ince...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 08:40:00
Chapelheel - good point about the incremental incentives for agents. You can say the same thing about real estate agents, a thought that worried me two years ago when I was selling my home. So I asked a prospective agent about this. Her reply convinced me to hire her - she said her reputation is at stake with each sale. True, maybe it didn't make a significant immediate financial difference to her if she sold my house at 200 versus 215. But, she knew that a higher sale on my home would enhance her reputation by either 1) word of mouth from me, or 2) her "stats" looking better (i.e., avg. sale price, profit). Which would lead to more business in the long run.
Same thing for sports agents. While the immediate incentive to get the extra 10% on a contract may be relatively small, the potential benefit to the agent's reputation can't be understated. This is an intensely competitive field, and if athletes perceive a particular agent as someone who can command 10% more than his peers, that's a huge advantage. Which of course leads to more deals for that agent down the road.
Posted By : ken
Ken is correct. Agents look for any edge over oth...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 09:19:00
Ken is correct. Agents look for any edge over other agents. If an agent wants to be successful, they cannot do quick deals that leave money on the table. If they do, every other agent will hammer them during the next recruiting season and veterans will be less likely to hire them. Fo r example, think of Ricky Williams' rookie contract. His agent left a lot of money on the table, and his agent had a hard time signing any other players. The agent is no longer certified.
Plus, the ability for people to drop in and do a weak deal yet make a quick buck is limited. Considering the fees and time involved in getting certified, it does not really make sense.
Posted By : Anonymous
Ken,
I don't see the real estate agent biz...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 12:53:00
Ken,
I don't see the real estate agent biz as analogous. Some of the primary reasons a seller of a home needs an agent is exposure to a much larger buyer's market as a result of 1) access to the multi-list, 2) buyer's agents will not typically show a house that is not listed with an agent, and 3) many buyer's (for some reason) are much more comfortable buying a listed house because they don't trust "by owner" sellers. So in other words, team owners/GMs don't distrust players who are not represented by agents and the player doesn't have access to more teams if he has an agent. More to the point, what do you think would happen if all sellers of homes could legally get together and agree on the maximum fees a real estate agent could charge?
BUT, irrespective of that, because I'm a firm believer that a player needs adequate representation in dealing with clubs, this isn't an issue about good representation vs. bad representation (which is often difficult to define). This is an issue about how much, and what method, to pay the representatives. Implicit in your comment is that good agents would decide not to represent players if the fee was less -- I disagree.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Ok, let me get this straight. You guys think 3% is...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 13:19:00
Ok, let me get this straight. You guys think 3% is outrageous. Some of you think 20% is outrageous. However, how about 33 1/3%, or 40% or even 50% for trial lawyers. Seems like you out to look in the mirror first. Oh, wait, that's to fight for the Constitution so its okay. Whatever.
Posted By : Anonymous
Rick, I think you've interpretted my post in a man...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 14:05:00
Rick, I think you've interpretted my post in a manner extending beyond what I intended. My point was only that good agents will fight for every dollar they can get - even though the immediate and incremental financial incentive isn't large - because their reputation is at stake. The same thing is true for real estate agents, your points about market access and consumer trust aside.
Capping commissions for sports agents versus real estate agents is another matter entirely, which should consider the factors you mention. I do think that athletes will continue to get good representation even if the commission rate is dropped to 2%. But regardless of whether the status quo remains or the commission is dropped, agents will continue to zealously seek the highest dollar amount for the reasons I have mentioned.
Posted By : ken
Rick:
Your comment on educating and informi...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 14:23:00
Rick:
Your comment on educating and informing athlete's to act in their best interests is right on. I would disagree that it is the union's duty to carry this out, however. It may be the unions's duty, someone else's or other entitie's duty. This would be up to the athlete.
The real point here is to educate, inform and train the athlete to be able to make decisions that will be favorable to them now and in the future.
The primary goal should be to instill self reliance in the individual. This is best done by educating and providing information and training on how agents work, what options are available and how to make decisions that produce the best results for the athlete.
I am aware that some will not want to be educated, informed or trained. They will hire an "agent" and hope they will get the best results possible. Best results for whom?
Possibly a course of action would be to establish an "academy" or "training" program run by individuals (not agents) who can provide the best information available, especially to the young athlete.
I understand these may exist now but am undure on how effective they are in supplying objective information.
Good topic.
Posted By : Richard Mock
This is just silly. The 3% is a cap. Meaning, of...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 15:26:00
This is just silly. The 3% is a cap. Meaning, of course, that players can (and do) negotiate those fees down. It just doesn't make sense to pick on sports agents and not doctors, lawyers, real estate agents, investment bankers, etc. Just let the free market system work. There are countless examples that show the value of a good agent, well in excess of a 3% fee. See, e.g., Vince Young, Ricky Williams, Kellen Winslow, Jr. (maybe Kellen Sr. should have hired the best agent instead of nickle-and-diming everyone).
Posted By : john
This is getting off the topic, but I can't resist....
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 20:55:00
This is getting off the topic, but I can't resist. There are a number of comments about Vince Young's agent. How do you know that Young has a bad agent? He hasn't negotiated anything, let alone been drafted yet. And how can anyone say right now that Young has reduced his draft status? Where Young gets picked is going to be based upon talent evaluations and projections made solely by the teams, and it remains to be seen where he falls. On the other side of the spectrum, there are players who are going to be first round draft picks that nobody is even talking about right now and nobody would have predicted to be high picks (except the teams that decide to draft them in the first round).
Are you saying that a poor performance by Young on the Wonderlic means he has a bad agent? Many NFL team personnel don't even care about a player's performance on that test. How do we know that a different agent would have even made any difference on the outcome? I read that he scored a 6 and a 16, and exam takers typically score higher on standardized tests the second time around anyways. Furthermore, if all it takes to get a good score on the Wonderlic is to take a bunch of practice tests, then the test is pretty much a meaningless measure of a player's cognitive abilities anyways (which it might be, and that's another issue in and of itself). But why is the agent the only one responsible for the player adequately preparing for this test and doing well on it?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
I think, pretty much, that everyone posting on thi...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 21:10:00
I think, pretty much, that everyone posting on this subject is either angry at their own employer, wishes they were Vince Young's agent, or is involved in a bad marriage right now.
Posted By : Anonymous
Rick,
I posted earlier that i saw a segment on...
Message posted on : 2006-04-18 - 22:23:00
Rick,
I posted earlier that i saw a segment on Vince Young on ESPN's Outside the Lines. For the record I do not believe the Wonderlic test equals success or failure, however a mediocre score would have hushed some critics and, maybe not Vince Young, but some prospects would allow that to affect their pre-draft preparation.
If you look on some websites for sports agents you will see they offer pre-draft preparation.
For some players that is important. Agents do more than negotiate things. Vince Young was in the perfect position coming out of college winning the Rose Bowl going from possible number one pick to sliding mid way through the first round. Some agents would not let it get this far, they would have kept him in the top 5. Granted he could still be a top five pick, but no other potential top 5 pick has this much controversy around him.
Another issue up for debate is how he showed up to the white house and disrespected the President by not dressing properly. There are some grumblings that it was Vince's idea, however little things like that may affect some teams.
I believe if you are going to hire someone close to you, you do not have them prepare you for a draft. It will be interesting to see how this develops, I believe the same agent represents a couple other Texas players.
Posted By : tommie
"Unless a practice is emphasizing high-round draft...
Message posted on : 2006-04-19 - 13:09:00
"Unless a practice is emphasizing high-round draft picks and valuable free agents with the potential to trigger multiple revenue streams like marketing and financial planning, the representation of football players is an inherently unprofitable business for the vast majority of practitioners in the field."
-- Leigh Steinberg.
Posted By : john
The realtor makes larger salary by turning more ho...
Message posted on : 2006-04-19 - 17:05:00
The realtor makes larger salary by turning more houses and realizes additional income because of the transient nature of buyers and sellers in the housing market. The market for players earning $1.5 million is relatively fixed, with new millionaires arriving primarily through the draft.
Thus, in the hypothetical given, negotiating a $2 million deal as opposed to a $1.5 million deal would earn the agent an additional $15k for the transaction. When an agent enters into a negotiation, his roster of clients is relatively fixed for that moment in time. By not holding out for a larger contract (regardless of the commission structure between the agent and the company for which he works), the agent is only passing on the opportunity cost of drumming up potential endorsement contracts or working on the contracts for his other players.
But most national endorsement deals are commenced by the company seeking an endorsement. So it comes down to whether the agent has so many contracts to negotiate that he will make more money by churning through them more quickly. And if that's the case, it is likely because the agent has a reputation for securing higher valued deals and more lucrative endorsement opportunities for his clients...not to mention that such a successful agent will have junior agents to help him during the busy times of free agency and the draft.
None of which really speaks to whether a 3% cap on agent commissions are appropriate. But if an agent is able to sign players to a 3% deal and retain his players throughout their career at that same rate, his roster of players signals to other players that they are satisfied with the price and quality of the services.
Also, no one has mentioned that state legislatures DO regulate agent commissions, albeit at a rate higher than the NFLPA. This would suggest that the state believes it provides adequate protection for athletes while providing agents a free market in which to practice.
Posted By : The Author
Hey, does anybody know an agent that can lend me s...
Message posted on : 2006-04-19 - 17:10:00
Hey, does anybody know an agent that can lend me some money? Ok, if not, does anyone know the CEO of Exxon? I mean he gets $400M.
Posted By : Anonymous
In book publishing, by contrast, agents get 15%. I...
Message posted on : 2006-04-20 - 00:38:00
In book publishing, by contrast, agents get 15%. It was 10% when I first broke into the field but eventually went up avross the board. I've worked with book agents extensively both as an editor and as the author of 9 books, and a good agent is clearly worth the money.
The problem with the NFL system is that the percentages are so low, that it's barely worth an agent's time to work with undrafted or low round draft choices. Unlike book agents, NFL agents have to carry a staff and travel extensively, and they have to work with young, high-maintenance athletes (granted, lots of authors are pretty high-maintenance, too). And those athletes expect their agent to be available at any time, and not to charge incidentals beyond that 3% fee.
How many clients can an agent represent well at that level? If the agent is maxed out at $20,000 a year for the typical player (about right for the median NFL salary of a bit under $700,000), you'd either have to have a couple of big-name salaries to subsidize the others or take on way too many clients to give them all their money's worth.
I understand that the 1st rounders don't like a chunk of their salaries going to, in effect, subsidize undrafted players and low-round picks, but it's not a bad system - the alternative would be to charge more for the low-round picks (who can't really afford it, given the average NFL career of 3.5 years) or to institute a pay-for-service system, which would expose less-savvy players to all sorts of abuse and price gouging.
Posted By : Swordsmith
The comments to this post are interesting, and som...
Message posted on : 2006-04-20 - 06:19:00
The comments to this post are interesting, and sometimes funny I might add. But I just want to make the point that the thesis of my article is not that agents get paid too much for the work they do, which seems to be the focus of the comments and maybe a misunderstanding about the focus of my article.
The subject of my article is regarding agent misconduct -- why its a problem to the industry as a whole; the causes of it; and some suggestions about how to reduce/get rid of it. ONE of my suggestions is to revise the agent compensation system, because you have to look at many factors about this industry as a whole that make it very unique from other industries -- some of which are the "makeup" of the players; the "makeup" of agents; the way CBA provisions operate to restrict player compensation and/or reduce the necessity of having an agent; the fact that you have a certified union acting on behalf of the players' collective interests. There's no question that agent misconduct in the form of client stealing, client solicitation and conflicts of interest has increased in recent years (my source for that statement is that Don Fehr said it was a major concern of his at the Sports Lawyers Assoc. annual meeting last year, as well as the increase in the NFLPA's disciplinary actions taken against agents in the last couple of years).
If the same level of misconduct is taking place with book publishing agents, real estate agents, etc. etc., then I haven't heard much about it, but it should be addressed some way, however I'm not knowledgeable about those industries. Now, if agent misconduct really is a problem that players/unions want to fix, then they need to consider some changes to the representation system -- because all of the current "belt and suspender" state, federal, NCAA, union agent regulations, legal ethics rules, etc., are simply not working nor being enforced -- and I discuss why that is in my article. On the other hand, if agent misconduct is NOT really a problem and the players are satisfied with what goes on in the industry, then, yeah, you leave it alone.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Thanx for the blog it gave ma a sence of hope-I am...
Message posted on : 2006-04-20 - 08:46:00
Thanx for the blog it gave ma a sence of hope-I am am actually going through a similar case in rugby. I am so lost with what to do and am not finding much help I am being sued for a sloppy hit in rugby along with the club-The club is covered by insurance but I am not-I have neverhurt anyone intentionally and have always played rugby with greatest respect. I have played all my life and do not want to give it up. I hope there is support out there for my family and I. I am deeply sorry for the player who got hurt-some injuries are worse than others and I have had my fair share of hospital visits. I still love the game and only time will tell.
Posted By : Anonymous
New website: www.karcherandarli$$.com
Message posted on : 2006-04-20 - 11:30:00
New website: www.karcherandarli$$.com
Posted By : Anonymous
This year, more than in previous years, the questi...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 11:52:00
This year, more than in previous years, the question of whether teams "tank" regular season games has arisen, as its applied not only for teams entering the lottery, but also for teams in the Western Conference seeking to secure a favorable first round matchup. But I'll focus on the lottery teams.
Although an organization or a coach might choose to play the younger, less developed athletes towards the end of a losing season, this is part of the process of determining the team's future. Evaluating players in actual games is important. Major League Baseball considers this part of the game important enough to increase roster size toward the end of the season to allow teams to take a look at their youngsters.
And in terms of incentives, those players who have been riding the bench throughout the year are motivated to perform at their best. If they do not produce, they might not be re-signed, they might lose value on the free agent market, or the team might draft, in the first round, a new young stud at that position. Young players (and cagey veterans hoping to hold on for another season) value play time highly and are unlikely to waste it.
Given the lottery structure of the NBA Draft, there is less reason to be concerned with such practices (than, say, in the NFL where draft position is strictly based on record). Although tanking a season gives you a better chance at securing a top draft pick in the NBA, it is by no means a guarantee. See Boston Celtics and Tim Duncan. (And, if we were to take as cynical a view of David Stern as some, he would ensure that any team that DID tank their season not be rewarded.)
Posted By : The Author
What's hilarious to me is that Shaughnessey seems ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 14:52:00
What's hilarious to me is that Shaughnessey seems more intent on preserving a particular image of Bird than Bird himself is, and speaks to the demands we place on our athletes. Clearly, to Dan, it is important that someone drinks beer instead of wine, that it says something basic about the person and their beliefs. Beer seems equated with some sort of integrity in this obnoxious and convoluted personal heirarchy. Speaking of integrity, isn't this the same Dan Shaughnessey who wrote the hit piece on Theo Epstein at the behest of Lucchino? Yes, I believe that it is.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
A more interesting question is whether the draft ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 15:12:00
A more interesting question is whether the draft is actually and effective talent re-distribution device as it pertains to the lottery teams. It seems that whether a team ends up 3rd or 8th doesn't matter all that much in the long run, since most teams that are in that position have much deeper problems than those that could be solved by one addition. Tim Duncan is great, but his value in retrospect is somewhat magnified by the fact that the Spurs were not really a lottery team. David Robinson was injured much of the year (and perhaps let himself heal just a little longer because they had a shot at Duncan). The Celtics were a terrible team, and the next year they were coached by the disaster that is Pitino. Could Duncan -- could anyone -- have thrived in Boston under those circumstances? Even if San Antonio got the fifth, sixth, whatever pick, they were not headed back to the lottery the next year.
Consider the Phoenix Suns. What if the predictions that they would suck this year because of the injury to Stoudamire were accurate? What if Nash had been injured as well, or Marion? They'd be a lottery team. They might get a high pick, they might not, but they sure as hell wouldn't be in the lottery again next year. The Knicks -- it wouldn't matter if they got ALL of the top 3 picks, they're going to be in the lottery for the next five years.
Here, then, is a Radical Proposal: give the teams who just missed the playoffs MORE chances than the teams that finished lower. It would not substantially punish the lower ranked teams (since they've got much deeper seated problems) and would also increase the chances that a high draft pick could make a difference (by playing on a team where he might be the missing piece) AND would make teams play harder at the end of the season.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
The 'equal weight' lottery was scrapped after the ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 21:31:00
The 'equal weight' lottery was scrapped after the Magic finished out of the playoffs (via tiebreaker) and won the lottery for the second year in a row.
The real problem with the NBA (and sports in general) is people want to have a system without any drawbacks.
Posted By : Michael
I'm not an expert, but in a competitive market, Ti...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 21:55:00
I'm not an expert, but in a competitive market, Ticketmaster wouldn't be able to charge $12 on a $30 ticket. All they have to do is take the order, print it, and ship em. Their costs are probably so high because they have to bribe the venues with big bucks to get an exclusive deal. It has to be a monopolization violation under Section 2 of the Sherman act. Ticketmaster uses their market power to buy exclusive access to almost every venue. No one can compete leaving the consumers no choice but to make ticketblaster stronger and stronger.
Posted By : Anonymous
Two words: Charlotte Bobcats. 19-52 with a great ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-21 - 23:33:00
Two words: Charlotte Bobcats. 19-52 with a great shot at the worst record in the league on March 27. Finished the season on a 7-4 run.
Posted By : Jason
This has always been a common practice in employme...
Message posted on : 2006-04-22 - 13:42:00
This has always been a common practice in employment relationships, just under a different name: "Docking". Employers often attempt to "dock" an employee for rules infractions. Technically, in an at-will state you can fire an employee at will for no reason at all, so by the same principle, I would think you can reduce their wage going forward (at least in an un-unionized environment) and if they won't take it, they can find new work.
The problem "fining" employees usually implicates is the FLSA -- the federal wages and hours law -- which says that hourly employees must be paid for all hours worked. Therefore, it's hard to dock an hourly employee's wages without running afoul of the act. A salaried employee is paid a set amount per pay period -- and so docking or fining a salaried employee (like a basketball coach at a big ten school) creates the possibility that the employee will no longer be considered an "exempt" employee. Instead, that employee now becomes eligible for over-time pay -- and I have no doubt that a college basketball coach works more hours than a standard work-week. I seem to recall that it was okay (from an FLSA perspective) to dock a salaried employee's pay for "major infractions" of work rules (like safety ruls), but I don't have a source on that.
My guess is that college coaches like this one have sufficiently "lawyered" employment agreements that the university has a right to impose fines like this under the contract. Or at least, if Penn State's general counsel is worth its salt, there should be such a provision. Maybe the fines come out of an expected bonus or the like, so that they can't be said to interfere with the salaried aspect of the coach's employment.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Collin,
i agree completely. also, the market o...
Message posted on : 2006-04-22 - 21:44:00
Collin,
i agree completely. also, the market of middle aged, unattractive, white males with mustaches who enjoy wine is probably fairly large.
Posted By : brandon
I've known a few part time hunters (in New England...
Message posted on : 2006-04-23 - 21:20:00
I've known a few part time hunters (in New England) who consider themselves environmentalists.
Their rationale is that hunting, deer especially, is necessary as part of environmentalism, with overpopulation of deer in particular being a problem in New England.
I don't really know enough about population control of wildlife to make a judgment, but from living in the area, it makes sense to me.
So I don't think the two beliefs are mutually exclusive. I see how such a partnership could work, and work well.
And even gun rights can be compromised on. No one really needs assault rifles and cop-killer bullets, after all.
Posted By : Satchmo
Ahh..
Finally! I am qualified (somewhat!...
Message posted on : 2006-04-23 - 23:48:00
Ahh..
Finally! I am qualified (somewhat!)
Hunting as a sport, I'm not a big fan of. Hunting as a means to eat, however, I am. Hunters are usually the most environmentally protective people I know. They are the ones out there protecting their land and their wildlife to make sure that it can be passed down to their children like it was passed down to them.
I can't stand to comment anymore on our current leadership. Yes, it used to be that "republicans" were the party to vote for for gun rights. Lately, I'm not really sure what it is that they are doing, but, I don't think it's protecting my "rights" in the proverbial sense of the word.
No one will take my guns from me. I need them to protect myself. Have you seen V for Vendetta? There is a quote in there, something along the lines of "What always happens when people without guns (the people that were disarmed aka "you and me") go up against people with guns (the govt)"
Satchmo, what is a 'cop-killer' bullet anyways? And can you define assault rifle for me please? I only ask so I can explain to you why we need them, so, do your best.
Thanks,
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Cop-killers are armor piercing bullets, although I...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 07:57:00
Cop-killers are armor piercing bullets, although I agree the name is a bit of a misnomer - any bullet powerful enough can theoretically puncture armor, not just the teflon rounds that this refers to.
Nevertheless, I don't see why such high powered ammunition is really necessary for big game hunting.
As for assault rifles, there is a specific set of weapons listed as assault rifles, with specific traits which do not include most hunting rifles. (As far as I can tell, the linked list is correct)
I understand the principle on which the NRA opposes the ban, but I don't really understand their zeal on the subject. Some gun control does not necessarily mean the eventual loss of the right to own a gun.
Posted By : Satchmo
To boldly go....where no sports law blogger has go...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 12:55:00
To boldly go....where no sports law blogger has gone before.....
Posted By : Anonymous
Satchmo,
Thanks for the link. I find it fu...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 15:55:00
Satchmo,
Thanks for the link. I find it funny that it lists, specifically, a Colt AR-15. I'm not sure if you know much about "assault weapons", but, this AR-15 is a "semi-automatic" rifle. It fires a .223 (5.56 MM NATO). The civilian version is not automatic like the Military's.
The problem with the link you gave me is that it is from the Brady's site. They are so vehemently anti-gun, they are not open for compromise.
I cannot speak for the NRA, although I am a member, but I will speak for myself. I am opposed to ALL types of gun control, no matter how innocent it may seem. Period. Any type of gun control from the government infringes on my right. Period. If you want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, cut off criminals hands (ok, I know that might be too harsh, but they wouldn't do it again.)
Vermont, THE state with the best gun laws of ANY state, has probably the lowest crime of our great country. Why? There are no barriers for carrying a firearm either openly or concealed.
Now, let's look at Washington, DC. They have the strictest gun laws in the nation (Actually, firearms are banned unless they were owned, and registered prior to '78 I believe). Interestingly enough, DC has the highest murder rate, violent crime rate, rape rate, assault... (per capita)... etc...
Explain that to me. I thought guns were the problem? Apparently it is just the criminals that are the problems, and us law abiding citizens just get in the way.
Secondly, anyone that can't see why, at this stage of "our" governement, we need the 2nd Amendment is not paying attention. Our 1st Amendment rights are being eradicated faster than at any other time in history (BCRA, check it out).
The 2nd Amendment is not for hunting. We don't need it to hunt. It is a doomsday provision that guarantees our government will fear the people, and not the other way around. Look what happened in New Orleans. I PERSONALLY know people that had to evacuate, and but for them having an assault rifle (AR-15 to be exact), would have literally been killed by the roaming gangs. No question in my mind. Don't mention how the cops simply started helping with the looting instead of keeping people safe. They simply can't keep everyone safe.
I could go on and on my friend, however, I would just pray that you don't make the 2nd Amendment about hunting only. It's about so much more.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Stephen - I'm not sure I would draw the analogue b...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 17:28:00
Stephen - I'm not sure I would draw the analogue between gun law and crime rates - there are a lot of other differences between Vermont (where I basically lived for 4 years, right over the border to NH at least) and Washington D.C.
Per capita income is pretty different for one, and it gets worse once you account for cost of living. Add in the fact that D.C. is a large urban area, with sections of the city being notorious for high crime rates, that I think there's more causality there than just gun laws.
Were the low crime rates a result of gun laws, or were the severity of gun laws dependant on the levels of crime? I'm actually not sure what the answer to that is.
In any case, I agree that the 2nd amendment is not about hunting. Not at all. That said, I wouldn't really characterize it as a Doomsday provision that we need today more than ever before.
The maintanance of a well regulated militia has at its purpose the defense of the free state, so I don't know that the 2nd Amendment is a safety clause for when the government goes bonkers and attacks its citizens. I think the "bonkers government clause" is one of the unenumerated clauses.
I'd really rather conduct the argument without the 2nd Amendment. It's a crutch for people on both sides.
Personally, I think that if we listen to logic, we can come up with much more rational gun control laws.
For instance, no civilian needs a grenade launcher attachment to their assault rifle. No civilian needs to buy teflon coated bullets. In cases of personal defense, normal handguns and hollowpoint bullets do just fine. Assault rifles are quite excessive, as they're rather designed that way.
Handguns and rifles can also be just as lethal in accidents. For hunting purposes, if you want to shoot a deer, go ahead, get the permits, buy the rifle and be as safe and responsible as you can about it.
I think rational laws that exerted some control over the right to bear arms would actually be very good for the First Amendment, and not destroy it as you may think.
The First Amendment, after all, is about respecting rights that are founded on the principle that we are rational beings, capable of peacable assembly, and responsible exercise of religion and press.
Essentially, that we are able to control ourselves and the need to express our wishes without the government intervening. And in the case that the government does overstep its authority, that we are able to take charge and change the government by peaceable means. In principle.
I think that there's an issue of trust at hand. Does the government trust individuals to safely keep and use firearms? It's probably too easy, and a problem, to say that people cannot control themselves and must be regulated, and should not therefore bear arms at all. I think this is what would go towards eroding the First Amendment.
But at the same time, to say that there are certain elements of gun control that should not be regulated is also a little disingenuous. Clearly there are weapons out there that people, ordinary civilians, have no need for.
In you case of New Orleans, I still don't understand the need for an AR-15. How about a pistol, or a shotgun? Is that not intimidating enough?
And if it ever comes to the need to defend ourselves from our own government by force, then clearly the principles governing the country have failed outright.
Posted By : Satchmo
Good arguments overall!
I will link you t...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 18:45:00
Good arguments overall!
I will link you to: http://www.theboxotruth.com/
though I don't know how to make it clickable for you. This will demonstrate the difference b/t a Rifle, a Pistol, and a Shotgun.
They each have their uses. Handguns are great for close range, as is a shotgun, and rifles are good long range. Rifles, even ones without "teflon" coated bullets (but actually they are Steel core bullets, teflon is really a misnomer) can penetrate most body armor worn by cops. If the Cali- cops had rifles, and good ones, they could have easily defeated those bank robbers. Plus, rifles hold more rounds!! :) (30 usually, my handgun holds 8 I believe)
I do believe that the 2nd amendment is an "anti-government" amendment. It's there to protect US v. Them. And also, to protect the state government from the federal government.
Do you own any guns? Have you ever shot a firearm? What do you think makes Vermont and New Hampshire (NH also has very few impediments to get a carry permit, I actually have a NH license in MS!) so safe, yet DC, New Jersey, New York and California (All of those states are extremely difficult to obtain licenses to carry weapons in) so dangerous?
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Stephen -
The only time I have fired a han...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 20:46:00
Stephen -
The only time I have fired a handgun was at a range with a friend in high school - his dad was teaching him about guns, and I tagged along. It was a pistol, Smith and Wesson, I think. No clue what caliber bullet it fired - .40 is what I remember, but I could be wrong. I do remember that the gun was pretty stocky, and the recoil, after I got used to it, wasn't that hard to control.
In any case, that's really all the exposure I have to guns. That and being an avid reader of WWI and WWII history as a kid. I also did see an episode of Mythbusters yesterday when they decided to test how far underwater you had to be to avoid a gunshot. It was actually a bad episode, as even I could explain the physics of it, but still...
I do know that most rifle rounds are extremely fast, as I indicated in a previous post - cop killer is kind of an inflammatory name.
But I'm still wondering what exactly people NEED assault rifles for. I've always thought that a handgun was enough to make someone feel secure, and if it wasn't, that was because they didn't know enough about guns.
As for the states and gun control laws, I would like to see statistics regarding violent crime before gun laws were implemented and crime statistics afterwards. I think that would show more than comparing states.
And bringing this back to environmentalism and hunting, I do agree with you, Stephen, that a lot of hunters are environmentalists, and that it seems like a rational partnership.
I actually have more issue with fishermen, because of the impact that stocking have on natural populations, as well as issues of sustainable fishing practice, than I do with hunters.
Posted By : Satchmo
The link between hunters/fishermen and environment...
Message posted on : 2006-04-24 - 21:00:00
The link between hunters/fishermen and environmentalists is not all that tenuous - even in the world of big business. Companies that derive profits from sales of fly fishing equipment must be in favor of things that protect the freshwater streams in the country. Without healthy freshwater streams - and lakes - these companies will go out of business.
The enviornmentalist groups and the hunting advocacy groups have often aligned themsleves with different political parties, but the commonality of their interest in preserving the environment is greater than that political divergence would suggest.
Posted By : The Sports Curmudgeon
"The maintanance of a well regulated militia has a...
Message posted on : 2006-04-25 - 00:26:00
"The maintanance of a well regulated militia has at its purpose the defense of the free state, so I don't know that the 2nd Amendment is a safety clause for when the government goes bonkers and attacks its citizens. I think the "bonkers government clause" is one of the unenumerated clauses.
I'd really rather conduct the argument without the 2nd Amendment. It's a crutch for people on both sides."
A few words as a Democratic pro-gun historian in New England...
Actually, there's some evidence that the Second Amendment was adopted for a completely different purpose, which sheds light on the "well-regulated militia" argument. While editing a new edition of Ellen Larned's wonderful History of Windham County books (first published in the 1870s but based on primary sources from the 17th-19th centuries), I came across what was perceived as a frequent problem of the mid-1700s: people not showing up for militia duty, the annual day of shooting practice everyone owed the town. One common excuse was the lack of a firearm, and people did claim they weren't allowed to own weapons. The Second Amendment removes that excuse: No one can claim they didn't show up to do their patriotic duty because they weren't allowed to own a gun.
It certainly acts as a check on government as well, and I tend to oppose most gun control laws, even as a (very minor) Democratic officeholder in a very blue state. As others have pointed out, it's a long way from an AR-15 to an assault weapon (and true assault weapons have been banned in this country since the 1930s) but even as a non-hunter, I'm very suspicious of attempts to slowly narrow down my Second Amendment rights with reasonable-sounding increments. "First they came for the trade-unionists" and all that... especially since many of the incremental changes are clearly intended to create a wedge.
Posted By : Swordsmith
I don't believe this will have a tangible effect a...
Message posted on : 2006-04-25 - 03:02:00
I don't believe this will have a tangible effect at all--at least with the talented-but-academically-troubled individuals who'd normally declare for the draft. The NBDL gets little, if any, publicity at all. If you were advising an 18-year old with enough talent to be considered an NBA prospect, you'd be best serving the kid's interests by telling him to go the prep school route for a year or two. Nobody knows who's on the roster of an NBDL team like Fayatteville. Plenty more know who's on an Oak Hill or a Hargrave roster. ESPN and the like televise prep school games. These kids need exposure and as currently structured, they won't get that in the NBDL. The only way this will change is if the NBDL significantly increased player salaries (thus increasing the talent pool) and news services actively followed and reported on the NBDL.
Posted By : Dan
u printed this in nov. 2005 and no 1 has left a co...
Message posted on : 2006-04-25 - 07:47:00
u printed this in nov. 2005 and no 1 has left a comment. that makes me sick no 1 appreciates nascar. but i do.im also not a fan but get a teacher to give us debate topics and suddenly u no more about nascar than any1 else.
Posted By : Anonymous
The unlikely hunter-environmentalist alliance alre...
Message posted on : 2006-04-25 - 13:25:00
The unlikely hunter-environmentalist alliance already has spokesman - the aging metal-head Ted Nugent. I remember this article from Outside magazine discussing this several years ago. He already has the hunters behind him; if he can just find some environmentalists who love bad hair and worse music, look out.
Posted By : ken
Had this case gone to court, my guess is that a ju...
Message posted on : 2006-04-26 - 09:08:00
Had this case gone to court, my guess is that a judge would have played dodgeball and followed Popov v. Hayashi (the Bonds baseball case) and equitably divided the proceeds of the sale of the ball between credible claimants. But I'm not sure that's the right decision. It really depends on whether we are talking about "ownership" from a legal or a moral pespective. From a moral perspective, you're right to say that Doug M. has little claim of ownership. But I think his legal claim is a little bit stronger. After all, you've indicated that Selig (the voice, for better or worse, of MLB) doesn't want the ball. Doesn't that in and of itself make the ball "abandoned property"? The person who has the most well-defined ownership interest has walked away from the ball -- just like MLB walks away from nearly every game ending ball. In my memory, "last out" balls caught by a first baseman are casually tossed into the stands for a young and enthusiastic fan. Baseball, unlike the NFL, wouldn't think to punish/fine a player for tossing the ball to a fan. Why would the fact that the ball was the last out of a world series matter? Legally, that is, how can it matter?
Morally, of course, it does matter. If you buy into the whole John Locke - mixing labor with land to acquire dominion over the natural world thing - then it seems like the strongest moral claim to the ball would be with whomever most "mixed" his labor with the ball. From that perspective, it's probably the Red Sox -- as a team -- that helped "create" the value of this ball (it's worth just .50 cents after MLB puts it in play, but a million or so at the end of the series). Doug M., however, has some modest claim -- after all, this ball is probably (?) worth more (at least to a Red Sox fan) than the ball that didn't end a world series when it went through Buckner's legs.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Just curious how people would respond to this hypo...
Message posted on : 2006-04-26 - 10:26:00
Just curious how people would respond to this hypothetical. Assume that, just like at the end of any other game, Doug M. flipped the ball into the stands (as suggested by geoffrey rapp). It would seem that in such a situation, the ball would be abandoned and the lucky recipient would own the ball.
Now, assume that Doug M.'S family is in the area to which he tosses the ball. If they caught it, are they not in the same position as the random fan recipient? Certainly baseball players toss balls intentionally to season-ticket holders and to kids they met before the game at the end of innings. What if he intentionally gave the ball to a family member? Why should Doug M.'s family member have less of an ownership right than the average season-ticket holder?
Which ultimately leads to the question, what if Doug M. gave it to a family member to hold while he was pouring champagne on his teammates? The ownership right to the ball hasn't changed from when he caught the ball on the field.
So why shouldn't Doug M. have a strong claim to it?
Posted By : The Author
Geoff: thanks for the excellent comment. A questio...
Message posted on : 2006-04-26 - 12:53:00
Geoff: thanks for the excellent comment. A question: when does the ball become abandoned? You say that Selig didn't want it, but at what moment was that clear? Should Mientkiewicz have assumed that to be true only moments after the game ended? I would think the default assumption is that MLB would very much want all of the game material, particularly given the magnitude of that game, and as a result, Mientkiewicz should have at least offered it back (and I don't believe he did, but I might be wrong)--without that offer, the ball doesn't seem abandoned, at least at that moment (unlike with a fan where there is no expectation that a home run ball or a foul ball should be returned).
The Author: like with Geoff's comment, thank you for your excellent points. I think an employee trying to circumvent the rules by flipping the ball into the stands appears to be what he would be: an employee trying to circumvent the rules at the expense of his employer or a different controlling entity. It isn't like the ball in that instance would have inadvertently entered the fan area, or entered because of a game activity (e.g., a player hitting a home run or foul ball). It would have entered the fan area by a player trying to get an object probably owned by MLB out of the stadium without detection.
Posted By : Michael McCann
There´s a recent article published about that issu...
Message posted on : 2006-04-26 - 14:09:00
There´s a recent article published about that issue:
Willamette Sports Law Journal On Line, Volume 3 Number 2 - Spring 2006.
"A Fielder's Choice: How Agency Law Decides the True Owner of the 2004 Red Sox Final-Out Baseball" By
Brian E. Tierney.
Posted By : Ariel Reck
I like the argument for abandonment. At first went...
Message posted on : 2006-04-26 - 15:54:00
I like the argument for abandonment. At first went with whoever owned the ball. But It seems in baseball, once the ball is in play, it is abandoned and if it goes into the stands a fan keeps it or if the at the end of an inning a player can keep it or throw it into the stands.
I wonder what would happen in football? Don't players have to pay for the balls they throw into the stands and keep?
Posted By : tommie
I see mention of this on the DePaul website, but n...
Message posted on : 2006-04-27 - 20:09:00
I see mention of this on the DePaul website, but no mention of any webcast. So does that mean no webcast?
Posted By : Satchmo
I think you have a wonderful blog :) I Love Texas ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-28 - 04:11:00
I think you have a wonderful blog :) I Love Texas hold'em to. Stop by my blog and post any tips that may be helpful.
Sexy
Posted By : Sexy
Will: thanks for the question. There was no webca...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 00:13:00
Will: thanks for the question. There was no webcast, unfortunately, but hopefully there will be a write-up. The discussion was great, and I'm happy to have been a part of it.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Curt Schilling could be MLB's poster boy for effor...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 09:04:00
Curt Schilling could be MLB's poster boy for efforts to curtail tobacco use. If I remember correctly, he developed sores in his mouth and quit the stuff. He was pretty vocal about it.
Does anyone remember when Pete Harnisch went on the DL in the early 90s? The Orioles said he was mentally depressed by his attempt to quit smokeless tobacco. Other players then made comments along the lines of "Well I better not quit, because of the nasty side effects." Turned out Harnisch was depressed for altogether different reasons.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
In addition, it's entirely possible that he'll be ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 16:00:00
In addition, it's entirely possible that he'll be a backup behind Kurt Warner, although with Warner, one never knows.
If there's anything good to me made out of his draft by the Cardinals, it's that he has a much better receiving corps with Arizona - Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin could make Joey Harrington look good. Maybe.
The thing that I notice first is that difference in guaranteed money. I would expect Leinart to get a little more, due to his status and position, but he obviously won't get 24 million.
And addressing his financial demands, I don't know his upbringing, but contrast Leinart with a guy like Hloti Ngata, who according to ESPN, has 4 siblings to support. Leinart obviously didn't have same urgency.
Posted By : Satchmo
Glad to hear that it went well - I look forward to...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 16:01:00
Glad to hear that it went well - I look forward to reading about it.
Posted By : Satchmo
Your off by a factor of 10 on your percentage. Th...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 17:04:00
Your off by a factor of 10 on your percentage. The average NBA player makes 13,900% more than the average NBDL player. I can use your mistake on the final exam that I'm giving my class an I may even try to get it published on a statistical error blog. Don't feel bad just keep doing what you do.
Math guy
Proof (1+x%/100)*35,000=4,900,000
1+x%/100=140
x%/100=139
x%-13,900%.
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
I have to disagree with you. The ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 18:48:00
Michael,
I have to disagree with you. The scouting personnel of the teams make their decisions on draft day based upon lots of factors (projectability; need; intangibles; signability; etc.), and none of which has anything to do with what is "widely-presumed" (a/k/a "hype"). The hype this year about Leinart was pretty much the same as it was last year. We can't say that Leinart hurt himself by staying in college another year, because we'll never know where he would have been drafted last year. Maybe he would have been drafted lower than 10th last year. The media and fans were all saying that Vince Young lowered his status this year, and look where he was picked.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
I dunno. At least for me, the curve levels off pre...
Message posted on : 2006-04-29 - 20:23:00
I dunno. At least for me, the curve levels off pretty much once you get to the $1 million mark. So the returns diminish considerably, and I can't put a dollar value on spending another year in college. Knowing what I was losing, I'd still do what he did... because you can never go back.
Posted By : tim in tampa
Yes no one will never know and it is easier to jud...
Message posted on : 2006-04-30 - 12:42:00
Yes no one will never know and it is easier to judge now based on the early judgements of last years draft.
But my belief is there are at least 4 quarterbacks who were drafted this year, that would have went ahead of Alex Smith. I never had any faith in Alex Smith and I still do not. Seems a lot of NFL teams are buying into USC players as system players.
Leinart is not a cold weater QB either, which is why San Fran would have been a good fit last year and why Buffalo passe dhim up as well. Marv Levy is said to also shy away from players from the state of Florida.
Maybe Leinart would not have went number one last year though, look at the virtual lock many people predicted in Tennessee, although some say Norm Chow was vying for him.
The point is no one will ever know, and success sometimes is based on who picks you due to the system and coaching. Examples are Cutler in Denver, Addai in Indy, Williams in Carolina, and Pope in Arizona...some players i like to make an impact within the next year or two depending on the opportunity to play.
Posted By : tommie
It's also possible that Leinart suffered not as a ...
Message posted on : 2006-04-30 - 14:43:00
It's also possible that Leinart suffered not as a result of his performance this year, which, by all accounts was fine, but because of what making the choice he made says about him.
To me, staying an extra year in college, after you've won a national championship and college football's highest individual honor, shows that you like being the BMOC and aren't ready to be back to square one. Regardless of whether he starts this year or not, he's going to be getting hit. Hit hard. By bigger men than he's ever been hit by before. He's going to lose games. A lot of them.
By staying an extra year, he got to avoid the psychological pain and indignity that great quarterbacks have all had to deal with in their early NFL careers. That, to me, and I'm guessing to a lot of the "football people" who evaluated him in connection with this year's draft, shows a lack of heart and a lack of focus. He looked like a goof sitting around taking ball room dancing and beating up (although usually not all that resoundingly) on poor defensive teams from one of the worst conferences in football.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
This is good reading, especially after your post o...
Message posted on : 2006-04-30 - 15:36:00
This is good reading, especially after your post on Joakim Noah's. Background is relevant and I guess it helps explain why these guys decide one way or the other. But if they expect to make it in the Big Leagues, I guess they have to take the opportunities when they come, especially if they are in their 20's already.
In Europe, we don't have a draft system. But we do get lots of big clubs signing "promising" young players. I never have I heard one say he wasn't ready. Of course most of them come back to their home clubs after a season of failure. But the good ones make it.
If he though he was good, and really wanted to make it as a pro instead of tasting the good life, wy would he have waited? Still, a disgrace what the TV made of the whole thing.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
So Leinart will still earn an eight-figure contrac...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 10:48:00
So Leinart will still earn an eight-figure contract and he dated Alyssa Milano? I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the guy. :)
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Criticizing Leinart for lacking heart or drive see...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 12:01:00
Criticizing Leinart for lacking heart or drive seems to be awfully shallow. Who are we to say whether he was not mentally ready for the next level, given that what kept him at SC was the promise of dominating college football while likely having the time of his life?
After all, what would it be worth to regular people like us to experience what Leinart did in 2005? It's easy to quantify what he lost in dollars by not declaraing last year, but it's much more difficult to determine what this year was "worth" by other measures. When even the most successful college athletes are not guaranteed any corresponding pro success, I frankly can't blame him at all for choosing to remain as part of one of the great teams in recent memory, compiling memories (like the win at ND) that will last a lifetime.
With the present default move being leaving college as soon as possible, I think it's refreshing to see people like Leinart and Noah enjoying it and living it up for what it's supposed to be.
Posted By : Ned
Ned, good point, but you said "it's easy to quanti...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 13:08:00
Ned, good point, but you said "it's easy to quantify in dollars what he lost by not declaring last year." That's not true. It's impossible to determine that because we don't know where he would have been drafted last year if he had declared. Maybe he didn't lose any money, and maybe he was drafted higher this year than he would have been drafted last year.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Peyton Manning stayed for an extra year, went to a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 16:01:00
Peyton Manning stayed for an extra year, went to a smaller market team (Indy), and has done pretty well (no Super Bowl yet as New England fans are quick to remind you). Ryan Leaf did not stay an extra year, went to a team in a big(ger) market and bombed out of the league.
Draft position has little to do with how well a player will do in the NFL or how mcuh money they will make (in part becuase contracts are not guaranteed in the NFL other than signing bonuses). The difference in money made by draft picks is overstated. The _real_ money in the NFL is not in rookie contracts but in the 2nd and 3rd contracts players sign. If Leinert plays well he will get a new contract after his 2nd or 3rd year that will pay him as much or more than Alex Smith makes (as a Bengals fan, I'll call it "Carson Palmer money"). Lienert only cost himself money if 1) he proves to be a bust or 2) has a serious injury.
He can purchase insurance to deal with point number 2. As for point number 1, one could infer that by staying an extra year, Lienart has confidence that he will do well in the NFL (contrary to the inference that Geoffery Rapp mentioned).
Posted By : David
I'm really interested in hearing your theories. I...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 20:23:00
I'm really interested in hearing your theories. I am from the California Bay Area - across the Bay from SF-- I honestly believe a lot of the hype about Bonds is due to his race and the fact that he has the nerve not to cater to reporters. Also, don't you think there's some inherent conflict of interest or apparent self-interest for the newspaper employing the writers who wrote the book knocking Bonds to continue to use those sports writers and continue to promote the book, in an off hand kind of way. (by constantly writing about the steroid issue without ever mentioning the book). Why aren't they getting after McGraw (whatever his name is)? He does have strong Bay Area ties.
Posted By : Anonymous
I agree. How is Time Magazine evaluating "influent...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 22:03:00
I agree. How is Time Magazine evaluating "influential"? It seems as if they have confused "influential" with "admirable" or perhaps "inspiring." And in and of itself, "influential" isn't a positive or negative word.
Now granted, Time Magazine has Steve Nash in the "heroes and pioneers" category for "influential" (whatever that means), but how is he a hero? Or a pioneer? Other than himself, his family, and Suns fans, is anyone really better off because of what he does?
And if we're going to pick an NBA player who makes a difference, why not pick Vince Carter, who recently donated $2.5 million for construction of a new gym at his alma mater, Mainland High School in Daytona Beach. Or how about Alonzo Mourning, who does a ton of charity work in Miami for kids with HIV. And there is always Mourning's former Georgetown teammate, Dikembe Mutombo, who donated something like $20 million to building hospitals in the Congo.
But perhaps the same people who thought that Steve Nash should be MVP over Lebron James and Kobe Bryant work for Time Magazine.
Posted By : Michael McCann
If Time is going to include Michelle Wie ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 22:04:00
If Time is going to include Michelle Wie as an "influential athlete" they need also to include Danica Patrick. Both young women are cut from the same cloth. They both get lots of publicity for what the do because of their age/gender combination, and the both have failed to win anything of consequence as of today. Neither is more or less influential then the other. You cannot include or exclude one without the other.
Steve Nash may influence young Canadians to play basketball instead of hockey. I think that is where his influence begins and ends.
Posted By : The Sports Curmudgeon
Michelle Wie makes no sense over several other peo...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 22:23:00
Michelle Wie makes no sense over several other people/athletes. What has she really done? Granted she is a mature and respectable teen, what does she have that influences people. Seems to me she is the type of person who should read a list like this and be "influenced."
Looking at the list it makes me wonder is the person who wrote this thought the article was how they shape "his" world. There are some great people on it, and i really like the add of Bill James, but the list is generally off base. What about team owners(Steinbrenner and Cuban) or Michael Jordan or coaches or ... the list can go on forever.
Posted By : tommie
Ah, Michael:
What is important here anyway?...
Message posted on : 2006-05-01 - 23:10:00
Ah, Michael:
What is important here anyway?
Stopping crime or catching knuckle-balls?
Posted By : Richard Mock
As an European student of Sports Law, I've had the...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 05:56:00
As an European student of Sports Law, I've had the opportunity to confront some of the american case-law with English and even Portuguese (where I come from) decisions. I guess the american reckless approach suits sports. It's true it leaves out a number of injuries and one feels for the loss of those who are left out by a reckless standard. But on the other hand, by applying a negligence test (and therefore lowering the threshold) you run the risk of changing the way the game is played on the long-run. England has been sort of mixed in its approach and there are many commentators and academics who endorse the reckless standard. But one feels that the specificity of the sports context is accounted for amongst the circumstances leading to a decision on negligence. In other countries where sports-law is still virtually non-existence, courts have fallen into the trap of looking to sports as just another event. The american example, in this area, is an excellent one.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano
Bostonians hardly care about public resources when...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 08:59:00
Bostonians hardly care about public resources when there's a Sox-Yankees game on the line. The officers would have even done it pro bono if they'd had to.
Also, a rapid exit from Logan isn't unheard of if the roads are clear. Late at night, I used to be able to go from terminal to home (just off the Allston tolls) in less than 10 minutes.
Posted By : Ned
Boras has a law degree from McGeorge and presumabl...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 09:05:00
Boras has a law degree from McGeorge and presumably was admitted to the bar. If agents cannot use the union to attack his tactics, what about his state bar's disciplinary committee? Given that the functions of an agent are much like those of a lawyer, it's very possible he could be running afoul of client solicitation rules, and a disciplinary committee is more likely to punish than the union.
The only problem with this is a ruling that lawyer-agents cannot solicit clients in ways that violate the legal ethics rules would result in fewer lawyer-agents, which concievably would result in worse service by agents. So a state supreme court considering this question might take that into consideration.
Posted By : Taco John
Love the Roids yeh
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 09:26:00
Love the Roids yeh
Posted By : Anonymous
Richard: I think your second question sums up the ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 10:26:00
Richard: I think your second question sums up the issue nicely.
Ned: In my view, the problem isn't whether a majority of Bostonians would endorse the police escort of Doug Mirabelli; it's whether that escort was in the interest of public safety, and whether it was an appropriate use of tax dollars, as determined by the public officials who made that decision. And really, if the test is whether an administrative decision would have been endorsed by popular vote, then why bother even having elected officials and administrative agencies? Don't we want their expertise and ability to make decisions while not being caught up in a popular frenzy (as James Madison would have argued)? Or should we just conduct a popular referendum on every decision?
However (and having lived in Massachusetts for most of my life), I do agree that a rapid exit from Logan isn't unheard of (although at 6:50 PM on a Monday night seems unlikely)--but it's the getting to Fenway Park, and dealing with Boylston Street and Yawkey Way and all of the other streets that are jam packed near the ballpark--especially right before a game--that make the 12 minute journey seem, quite literally, unbelievable.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I sent Mike a couple of questions regarding this, ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 10:42:00
I sent Mike a couple of questions regarding this, and I'd like to post them for discussion purposes.
While contact between agents and players with other representation is common, what is the line for inappropriate conduct? And could the following notes in the article influence where that line is drawn?
- Boras calls Munsey a "young agent"
- could Boras' status in the community, both in terms of client base and experience, at least in relation to Munsey, have any discriminatory effect on any decision to sanction or reprimand Boras? The fact that Gene Orza is quoted as saying "The facts almost as frequently, but not always, tend to be different from the perception," might indicate a bias for the more established and experienced Boras. The article does mention that the complaint has often been heard from small agents like Munsey.
- By Saltalamacchia's own account, he was contacted "close to 10 times" last year, and has has continued interaction with individuals in Boras' employ. Especially after he has expressed his commitment to his current agent, doesn't that seem a little excessive? The phrase Munsey uses is "tortious interference." If indeed Salty has been contacted this often, and he seems to regard it as an annoyance (which might influence his on-field performance?), does Munsey have a point?
Posted By : Satchmo
To the extent this is a question of what vital pub...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 11:17:00
To the extent this is a question of what vital public service was sacrificed for the sake of getting Mirabelli to Fenway, it seems to be a problem of speculation.
Did the cops leave their beat patrol in East Boston for this? That seems awfully unlikely. Did the 100 MPH caravan down Beacon Street put the public in danger? Given the inherent nature of Boston driving, I'd guess hardly.
The city does escorts like this (although not at the same speed) whenever dignitaries are in town, so perhaps there's a special squad on call, used at the discretion of Mayor Menino or the police chief. In such case, it would be simply a matter of cost, and so then it's a question of what a Sox-Yankees victory is worth. Let's say the escort cost $20,000; if even one out of three fans at the park were happy enough due to Mirabelli's timely arrival and the subsequent victory that they bought one more beer, that pumps double the city's cost back into the local economy.
More generally, though, I'd argue that instances such as these are ripe for discretionary public spending. Assuming no threat to safety, this type of decision likely increases the public welfare, something which is of course a basic function of government.
Now, would this be a different matter in, say, Tampa? Quite possibly; few if any cities live and die by way of their teams like Boston and its residents do with the Sox. But that reality seems to be precisely why using public resources in this way was defensible.
Posted By : Ned
This is like the dirty little underworld that the ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 11:55:00
This is like the dirty little underworld that the Union doesn't like to talk about. The agent "regs" that apparently regulate agent conduct are as light on substance as they are in length. When was the last time an agent was actually disciplined by the Union, and even if that happened, when was the last time it was made public? Anybody who doesn't think that this sort of thing happens all the time is sorely mistaken.
The sad fact is the Union views Boras and the like as good for the game and does everything it can to protect and insulate them. The MLBPA has almost morphed into the MLBPAA.
BTW, can we get a link to Karcher's law review article? Thanks.
Posted By : Bryan
It is just another example of treating atheltes ab...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 12:21:00
It is just another example of treating atheltes above the law and the rest of society.
It is obviously not beneficial. As much as I love sports, it cannot be condoned. There are tons of people late for work that do jobs that actually benefit society, like police men, fire men, contruction workers etc ...
Posted By : tommie
But was the escort an appropriate use of tax dolla...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 13:09:00
But was the escort an appropriate use of tax dollars?
In a word, YES.
Posted By : Bill
Two other ways to get to this result would be by a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 13:52:00
Two other ways to get to this result would be by application of worker's compensation law (an intentional tort would get you out of the fellow servant rule) or by plain old assumption of the risk doctrine.
Posted By : Bill
The NFLPA is more strict about client solicitation...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 13:56:00
The NFLPA is more strict about client solicitation than the MLBPA. That said, it is a difficult thing to enforce, because it requires the player to give evidence against the agent, and in most cases this only comes up after the player has left to go with the soliciting agent.
Posted By : john
What's the big deal? If it took 12 minutes to get...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 15:37:00
What's the big deal? If it took 12 minutes to get him there then the officers were only occupied for probably 45 minutes to an hour. It's not like there were criminals waiting in the shadows until the officers (3 or 4 of them?) were busy with Doug. I think it's much ado about nothing. If that same thing happened for a Utah Jazz game, I'd thank the city for doing it.
Posted By : Jeff
I can't believe no one has pointed out the obvious...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 15:47:00
I can't believe no one has pointed out the obvious, that being Leinart had to return to school this past year. He was coming off (elbow or shoulder?) surgery and would not have been able to throw for scouts last off-season. Given that, there is no way San Francisco takes him number one. Seeing as how far Rodgers slid, there is no telling where Leinart may have gone.
For everyone that says it was stupid for Leinart to return to SC, and for those who think it was admirable: he didn't have a choice.
Posted By : Joe R.
Reggie Evans' despicable action towards Chris Kama...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 16:19:00
Reggie Evans' despicable action towards Chris Kaman was, regretably, glossed over by the NBA. To describe it as outrageous behavior hardly is inadequate. If Chris Kaman were a woman, Reggie Evans would be in jail!!
Ex LA Lady
Posted By : Ex LA Lady
Thanks for the comments, and all great points.
...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 20:15:00
Thanks for the comments, and all great points.
Taco John: I agree with you. Also keep in mind that it depends upon the applicable state's definition of the "practice of law". An agent who is a lawyer will make the argument that he is not engaged in legal work when he negotiates a player's salary in the context of a uniform player contract.
Satchmo: The "line" that is drawn in the union agent regulations is at providing materially false info. or providing money or other value (with the exception of the NFLPA regs. which prohibit solicitation of clients under representation unless the player is within a 60 day window of the expiration of his contract, but there are even exceptions to that rule that give agents some wiggle room). So as Bryan notes, the regulations are not very strict. And courts are simply not sympathetic to an agent who has his client stolen as a result of another agent soliciting his client (courts refer to that simply as acceptable "puffing" like a used car salesman would do). Courts will typically only intervene when an agent leaves a firm and violates a non-compete with the old firm.
Bryan, I appreciate your interest in obtaining my article. It is in the editing stages with the law review staff and will be published in the Willamette Law Review this summer. I will post it as soon as it becomes available.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Everywhere you go people spit in your food and uri...
Message posted on : 2006-05-02 - 20:47:00
Everywhere you go people spit in your food and urinated and even have sex on your food but if you don't want to take the chance don't eat out
Posted By : Anonymous
Interesting point. I do think that the economic in...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 00:48:00
Interesting point. I do think that the economic intersection between race and sports marketing is more nebulous than whether it was in the economic interests of an Atlanta restaurant to discriminate customers on the basis of race back in the 1950s. But there are certain instances where the similarity and underlying simplicity may be apparent. Just consider the NBA's recent dress code, and the league's desire that players do a better job appealing to "certain fans" (my words, not David Stern's)--perhaps it corroborates your point.
Posted By : Michael McCann
As the author of several Red Sox books heavily bas...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 01:46:00
As the author of several Red Sox books heavily based on the folklore of the team, I take it as a personal favor when they do things like this that make for memorable stories. Beyond the fact that it was a wildly popular move in Boston (which is defensible in tax dollar terms, but certainly susceptible to Madison's argument), I think you could make an argument that the positive publicity for the police force easily outweighed the cost, or the potential crimefighting value those officers might have had while they were sitting on the tarmac waiting for Mirabelli.
How often do the Boston police get saturation media coverage for doing something overwhelmingly popular and largely uncontroversial? Given the heat they've taken for overtime and parking issues, being associated with helping the Red Sox beat the Yankees (and all the footage was repeated tonight because of the rainout) seems like a pretty solid PR investment on the cheap.
Posted By : Swordsmith
Hopefully this is a step towards turning attending...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 10:14:00
Hopefully this is a step towards turning attending a Nationals game from a chore to an enjoyable experience. I understand there is nothing that can be done about the stadium, but at least give us some decent concessions, i.e., some variety and decent service. And by service I mean that before the game two weekends ago, I attempted to buy a sausage (none were ready) and a beer (they were out of cups) but came away empty handed. It was like Selig was running things or something.
Posted By : Anonymous
I heard my Buffalo Bills could move to LA. They ha...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 10:35:00
I heard my Buffalo Bills could move to LA. They have the misfortune of not only sucking, but also being in a small football market.
Posted By : Anonymous
There is nothing wrong with calling the accuser a ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 12:27:00
There is nothing wrong with calling the accuser a stripper because that was/is one of her occupations. Maybe they could call them exotic dancers. But, the fact remains that it is not the title of her occupation but the populace's perception of said occupation that is inappropriate. On the other hand, calling the indicted players thugs could be done but is probably inappropriate for the same reason as mentioned above, and it is not the title of their occupation.
Moreover, the notion that out of 47 lacrosse players that there has been some minor and major indiscretions is not enough to justify calling all of the athletes thugs. First, having a party where the players hire a stripper is not illegal. Second, infractions such as minors in possession of alcohol, public intoxication, public urination, etc. are not uncommon in adults aged 18 to 25, particularly on a college campus. In addition, I imagine if you surveyed people you don't think are "thugs," there would be a considerable number of them that had similar indiscretions in their past.
That said, you are correct that the media does seem set on defending the defendants. This could be because the defense has a much better PR strategy than the prosecutor who foolishly attempted to try this case in the media at the outset. It is a depressing situation and I hope it doesn't affect the trial.
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
IT COULD BE THAT THEY ARENT REFERED TO AS THUGS BE...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 12:28:00
IT COULD BE THAT THEY ARENT REFERED TO AS THUGS BECAUSE THEY ONLY ALLEGEDLY are thugs, where the girls are offically strippers.
I am pretty sure the same player violated the parole as the one that made the homophobic reference. Lets just get thte facts straight
Posted By : Anonymous
I've never understood the rationale that travels "...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 16:45:00
I've never understood the rationale that travels "well, they make money for someone else therefore they should be paid." We profit off amateur sports all the time, but for some reason that's not a problem until it's college sports. Sure the monetary stakes are higher, but the principle remains the same: these athletes are amateurs.
Sure it's a circular defense: to remain amateurs they must remain amateurs. But it's no more specious than the defense of "it makes money therefore everyone is entitled to it."
- Damian
Posted By : Anonymous
Damian,
The definition of an amateur is one...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 17:03:00
Damian,
The definition of an amateur is one who engages in an activity as a pasttime rather than a profession. If you've ever spent any time with athletes on a Division I campus, you must know these athletes do not view their athletic participation (and the money they receive in return for that participation) as mere pasttimes.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
Looks to be an interesting article. I look forwar...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 17:27:00
Looks to be an interesting article. I look forward to reading it. I recall some efforts to unionize college athletes that stalled in California a few years back. I think legally, there's a strong claim for college athletes having the right to unionize. Particularly in light of the recent successes of graduate students at NYU and Yale in organizing for collective action, the student/employee lines seems to be breaking down.
At the same time, having the right to unionize isn't the same thing as deciding that it's in one's best interests. College athletes at Division I programs may not get paid their marginal revenue product (although athletes generate revenue at only a few schools and only in a few sports). But they may get "paid" in other ways. I've been assured that, for example, Michigan Wolverines who aren't drafted usually find themselves "taken care of." And the empirical evidence about success in corporate America seems to back that up. College athletes--particularly football players at top schools--might very well decide that they get more out of informal compensation for their "unpaid" labor than they would get out of the federal minimum wage (plus time and a half during rivalry week, of course). Is there a Curt Flood out there, willing to take a hit personally for the good of future generations? I'm not so sure.
If non-revenue generating athletes seek to unionize, my guess would be the practical effect would be to prompt the university to simply can the program.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Interesting issue, and I look forward to reading t...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 19:43:00
Interesting issue, and I look forward to reading the article -- especially because it's written by my old sports law professor :)
I wonder how the bargaining unit would be defined? -- e.g. by all collegiate players, by league, by all BCS school players, or by all Div. I players. And how would the employer unit be defined? -- Would it be a multi-employer group? Would it consist of all schools or on a league by league basis?
In some ways the model could be analogous to pro sports leagues. In other ways it would be very very different from pro sports leagues and much more complex.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Fan's Attic hit the nail on the head. I would als...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 20:02:00
Fan's Attic hit the nail on the head. I would also add this:
The alleged victim is a stripper. She came into contact with the accused parties during the course of her employment when she went to the house to perform her job (as a stripper).
The issue would be different if it were alleged that the defendants attacked her at a random place and time (i.e., when the stripper was not "working."). Then, and only then, would I have a problem with the media referring to the alleged victim as a "stripper" because it would be very prejudicial to do so under such circumstances.
One more thing. If, as it has already been frequently suggested, it turns out that the stripper made up these damaging allegations, I hope that Nifong prosecutes her (for filing a false report) with the same zeal and intensity with which he's going after the current defendants.
Posted By : Lance
It was marketed as anti-Moneyball, but it wasn't r...
Message posted on : 2006-05-03 - 22:24:00
It was marketed as anti-Moneyball, but it wasn't really an antithesis if you think about it.
While the Braves don't place as much value in OBP, they still evaluate talent in a way that is unique to them. And Moneyball, which is about Oakland's ability to succeed due to taking advantage of an undervalued statistic, isn't exactly contradicted by the Braves' unique scouting.
The problem is that OBP is easily quantifiable, whereas "makeup" is highly dependent on the observer and the research they do.
But if the Braves in fact have a consistent way to evaluate makeup, or at least a low enough degree of staff turnover so that they are evaluating and giving weight to makeup the same way, they could be taking advantage of the market; their scouts consistently evaluate differently from other scouts, which gives them an advantage in recognizing talent.
I don't know if that statement is true, but I think it's an interesting way to approach the divide.
This would obviously be hard to duplicate with another team, but if Kasten can hire individuals who can evaluate "makeup" in the way that has enabled the Braves to be successful, then I don't see why the Nationals can't begin to build their dyansty. OBP-driven or makeup-based, I feel that consistency is an integral part in either philosophy.
Posted By : Satchmo
The Red Sox have already said that they paid a sta...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 00:26:00
The Red Sox have already said that they paid a standard fee to the state to get a police escort. Now I assume that you or I couldn't get this kind of service at any price but it was Red Sox-Yankees and Damon's first time back to Fenway. It had to be done.
Posted By : Anonymous
I think the problem is a shifting perception of un...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 11:44:00
I think the problem is a shifting perception of unions and labor issues in this country. Other unions aside, the vast majority of the country does not seem to notice or care about strikes. They only notice when the strike inconveniences them, and that's part of the purpose of a strike, I suppose. They might also support the strike if the striking group is well-liked or seen as put-upon unfairly. When pro sports players strike or threaten to strike, people care because they love the sport and the idea of not having it is upsetting. I don't really think anyone supports the players because they feel sympathy for the plight of the players. The minor league umpire strike does not affect the games on the field, and the umps are anonymous enough that there really aren't going to be any "fans" of the umps who decide to stay away out of solidarity. I tried to attend a minor league game yesterday (thwarted by the impassable traffic in Round Rock, TX - scary) and despite following baseball pretty closely, I had totally forgotten about the ump strike. An unpublicized strike by a nearly unknown collection of workers just seems like it is doomed to fail.
-Kevin Clark, Austin, TX
Posted By : Anonymous
I wonder if the Nats will pay a local reporter to ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 11:52:00
I wonder if the Nats will pay a local reporter to promote the genius of their organization the way the Braves did. The book is really embarrassing (notwithstanding the substantial accomplishments of the Atlanta organization).
The next few years in Atlanta will be interesting. They've begun trading a LOT of their young talent and they generally have been making poor decisions with their veterans. Last year they paid real money to have Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi in the corner outfield spots. One was awful and the other was simply released mid-season. They got bailed out when Johnson, Francouer and Langerhans performed well. Those three finished weakly, though, and their MLB performances far exceeded what their minor league performances would indicate. Only two of them are on the roster and they are hitting a combined .240, with an OBP of .280 and a SLG of about .370. With a combined OPS of about 650, they'd have a hard time maintaining jobs as backup middle infielders, much less corner outfielders.
And while signing Chipper was a decent move, they should not have promised him 3b. His skills at 3b have deteriorated significantly, making him a defensive liability. More importantly, it shut the door on 3b prospect Andy Martes, who was their future at that position.
And although he hasn't shown it yet so far, Renteria is a bad move. His skills at the plate have been steadily declining and he is not a good defender. Bye bye Furcal, and Betemit gets to ride the pine.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I couldn't agree with you more Satchmo. Both the ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 11:58:00
I couldn't agree with you more Satchmo. Both the Braves and Athletics have approached player personnel with unique systems attempting to (in economics terms) take advantage of inefficiencies in the marketplace - the Athletics through the use of statistical analyses and the Braves through, as you described, a unique scouting system. Both franchises have succeeded in this regard, albeit with very different systems. Nonetheless, I agree that their paths to success are much more alike than those involved in the ongoing Moneyball/statistics vs. scouting debate would care to admit.
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
I'm sorry, are you under the mistaken impression t...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 16:31:00
I'm sorry, are you under the mistaken impression that you are the first or only one presenting this information about the defendants? That information has been out in the public for a while now, and tossed back and forth by the talking heads, some of whom very much like to paint these men as thugs (i.e. Wendy Murphy).
Throwing stereotypes at rape victims is a serious issue, and one that is very present here. But there is no need to pad your argument by pretending that the media has ignored information about the defendants.
If the treatment is unequal, then show it. Don't just assume it.
Posted By : Dave
could it be that in the military and the sports fi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 18:13:00
could it be that in the military and the sports field, where it is documented that men shower together, presumably in the nude. if i was showering i wouldnt want it to be with a homosexual for obvious reasons. for women this is not the same problem. for men, i think that has a lot to do with it.
Posted By : Anonymous
There are steroids that target and strengthen tend...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 19:06:00
There are steroids that target and strengthen tendons and ligaments. As a former player, one thing I learned is that trainers don't know anything about steroids, but many of the players are borderline experts. Sad, but true.
JP
Posted By : John Powers
They speed up recovery time between starts. Easier...
Message posted on : 2006-05-04 - 23:16:00
They speed up recovery time between starts. Easier to rest and recuperate and prolonged careers.
Posted By : tommie
I guess the importance of sport is not only recogn...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 04:40:00
I guess the importance of sport is not only recognised in courts and laws, but also in daily life situations such as the one you report. But I still think the state news to draw the line somewhere. And people certainly have to do the same.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
I continue to be puzzled why you're making a mount...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 09:29:00
I continue to be puzzled why you're making a mountain out of this molehill issue, Prof. McCann. If you're objecting generally to preferential treatment received by athletes over regular citizens, that's certainly valid. But this societal approach is hardly confined to athletes and certainly not at its worst in this instance.
As for the "doctors and police" on the flights bypassed by Mirabelli's, did anyone miss surgery or an arrest as a result of this? Did anyone miss their connection? Did anyone not make it home for dinner? Was anyone even upset? And was the delay a couple minutes or a half hour? This is all wildly speculative, and with the Herald as the source I have some basic questions about reliability in the first place.
Again, I'll come back to a fairly easy argument: imagine being on one of those flights and having the captain announce that they've been pushed back 10 minutes to allow Mirabelli to get to the game on time. I'd place the odds of applause breaking out at, oh, about 75%.
Posted By : Ned
Durham (AP) -- Two thugs from the Duke University ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 09:43:00
Durham (AP) -- Two thugs from the Duke University lacrosse team were indicted today for "allegedly" raping a young and beautiful and golden like the sunshine that warmed her body woman at an off-campus party.
Posted By : john
Ned, you are missing the point and principal of th...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 10:40:00
Ned, you are missing the point and principal of this. You lack the eyes to see the big picture. It is not the right message to send.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie is exactly right. For relievers, they help...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 10:55:00
Tommie is exactly right. For relievers, they help you bounce back from appearances, making you feel better the next day. For starters, it makes you feel as if the lactic acid hasn't built up as much, thus making the arm feeling looser and stronger.
I don't think any pitcher thinks that steroids will help him bulk up and thus add velocity - pitchers are usually too smart and know too much about flexibility and whip to think that. But the roids sure can help with recovery.
Posted By : Bryan
Also, any article that quotes "doctor" Mike Marsha...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 11:12:00
Also, any article that quotes "doctor" Mike Marshall is doomed from the start and has no credibility.
Posted By : Bryan
In response to JP - There is no scientific evidenc...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 12:28:00
In response to JP - There is no scientific evidence that suggests steroids "target" ligaments and tendons. In fact, just the opposite - muscle bulk that occurs with steroid use puts the ligaments and tendons at risk because of structural imbalance. Any tendon strength increase correlates to growth in size and strength of the muscle in response to the steriod. The problem, as JP demonstrates, is that players "think" they're borderline experts, and consequently ignore significant health-related issues that arise from the use of these substances.
-John
Posted By : Caseycro
The total estimated cost to attend the better ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 13:24:00
The total estimated cost to attend the better of the nation's colleges now adds up to over $40,000 per year.
Fine. So pay them, and don't offer them scholarships. Some will get more than $40K, some less. More equitable.
Moreover, the pretense that athletes at top schools are there to learn is jarring. It's not precisely unknown for teams to have academic advisors who indicate which classes are too time-consuming for a team member, for example.
Posted By : Anonymous
And yet the grant-in-aid still does not equal the ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 15:59:00
And yet the grant-in-aid still does not equal the full cost of attendance, and is typically thousands of dollars short. I know they're getting a ton, but they're not getting everything paid for. Plus it's harder for them to get other types of financial aid.
And most high-level college athletes are not on full scholarship. Most athletes who play revenue sports are because of headcount rules, but consider that the average soccer team has 25 members and has 9.9 scholarships to split as they choose.
Posted By : Taco John
Recently, a fellow student was telling me how a ca...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 16:38:00
Recently, a fellow student was telling me how a campus discussion he had organized had turned into an expensive affair. Part of the expense was the result of his decision to have police presence at the event, a service for which his organization would have to pay.
I had never previously considered whether the police department could be directly hired.
But when I heard about Mirabelli, I assumed the police were likewise offering a service for pay.
Much of the uproar here comes from the assumption that the police where offering their services free of charge, and at the expense of service elsewhere. The same is true of the airport. I don't know exactly what the truth is, but I'll guess that this assumption is driven by the, um, joy of complaining about big-time sport.
Consider how little Mr. McCann's view changed after hearing that the service might have been paid:
(Mirabelli received a police escort, allegedly paid for by the Sox, but obtained the same day and clearly reflected preferential treatment accorded to the Sox)
Parenthesis in original. The assertion following clearly is pretty important. So is it really that clear?
There may really be an action to condemn here. A free escort in this case would be a strange use of tax dollars. But to convince me it is tax dollars, I'd ask for a little factual research. All the subsequent hand-wringing doesn't add much to the argument.
Posted By : Dave
As a former cop, I can say that the Red Sox receiv...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 17:17:00
As a former cop, I can say that the Red Sox received special treatment in getting a police escort so quickly--you don't get one the day of the request, unless you are a VIP.
dave, it reallly doesn't matter if they paid for it, which they did. They got their request granted faster than a regular business or person would. that's the point.
Posted By : Steve
JP,
So you're saying that a minor league pi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 18:41:00
JP,
So you're saying that a minor league pitcher in his early 20's who plays for a couple years (with just a high school education or maybe went to college for a couple of years) becomes a borderline expert about steroid use and knows more about steroid use than Larry Starr, who has made a 30-year career in professional baseball strength training with both the Marlins and Reds?
Tommie and Bryan: If pitchers are "too smart and know too much about flexibility and whip," then why would they risk (1) getting bulkier, (2) restricting range of motion and (3) structural imbalance (not to mention all of the other negative effects on their bodies and possibly minds, short and long term) for the chance benefit that it will help them rest and recover (if that's even true)? I thought that was what ice, Motrin and Ben-Gay were for. What's ironic with what you're saying is that pitchers today throw less number of pitches and innings than they used to!
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Thank you professor Standen for giving us some lev...
Message posted on : 2006-05-05 - 21:17:00
Thank you professor Standen for giving us some level of intelligent sanity on this issue.
I'd say you hit the nail right on the head in that the value of scholarships, not to mention the opportunity to earn an invaluable degree are plenty payment enough for these athletes at the college level.
Furthermore, according to the information I have been reading, Title IX requirements all but insure that either ALL student-athletes be paid(ladies too), or none.
Posted By : Dave
Steroids are only effective if used in conjunction...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 00:39:00
Steroids are only effective if used in conjunction with some type of work overload. They do not magically cause muscle growth without work. Therefore, a pitcher taking steroids who does only nominal upper body training will not run the risk of becoming too bulky. He could however, significantly increase leg strength, an important factor in creating velocity. By doing rotator cuff exercises and using steroids a pitcher could also significantly reduce his chance of injury to the shoulder joint by strengtening the weakest part of the shoulder.
Posted By : Anonymous
Your information is correct, but the reality is th...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 03:04:00
Your information is correct, but the reality is there are some fundamental flaws to this system making it equal to the process and definition of intendured servitude (may be misspelled, please check your dictionary). First is you cap their potential earnings, players like Reggie Bush can help get their families out of the ghetto but according to the rules they only get the $40,000, despite being worth more to the University and potential sponsors. Second is these athletes are unable to have professional assistance in determining their value and working to achieve their chosen career field as a professional athlete; where any other student can go to a professional career coach or lawyer to do the same even if they are on grants and scholarships for music, accounting or liberal arts. The final flaw is these players are not able to test the market and see if the NFL is right for them without fear of losing their eligibility; If I was an accounting student I could intern at a Big six accounting firm wih no penalty but I couldn't work out a professional football team practice if I was an athlete. Yes, these players receive compensation via the scholarship and that has never been my contention, my contention is they should have the freedom to earn as much as the market is willing to bear like the coaches and university presidents, they should be able to hire agents to assist them in their career choices, and they should be able test their professional career at any time the professional companies are willing to do so, otherwise this is just a form of indentured servitude that is illegal, the last time I checked.
Posted By : Anonymous
I guess it could be fair to say that the assessmen...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 07:27:00
I guess it could be fair to say that the assessment of their status may be dependent on what why the question is being asked in the first place. Is it for antitrust reasons or a restraint of trade claim? Courts would tend to hang on to any sort of revenue made by the individual, wouldn't they? But if the question is being asked for other reasons, maybe the amateur status is one which people which to be retained...
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
Prof. Standen,
Would you find it acceptable...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 10:37:00
Prof. Standen,
Would you find it acceptable if every university in the country agreed to cap professors' salaries?
If you're answer is no, distinguish professors from athletes, given that the money saved by fixing teachers' salaries could go to the same ends as the money saved by fixing athletes' salaries.
Posted By : Anonymous
When Charles says the "thrill of competition," he ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 10:54:00
When Charles says the "thrill of competition," he means the addiction athletes have to not only athletic or other competition, but the need for a fix of the moment where you win or lose. I would imagine when a highly successful athlete runs a business, goals are very well defined and there's no such thing as partial success. There might not even be anythere better than normal success. What Charles likes is that moment where he's split two cards, doubled down on both to get 19 and 20, and the dealer is showing Ace, and the hand is now worth $10 million.
My only slight problem with Barkley's comment is the "I can afford it" rationale. I actually think it's fine for gambling, since gambling is supposed to be entertainment, and if he can afford this type of entertainment, so be it. But it's too small of a jump from "I don't have a gambling problem because I can afford it" to "I don't have a cocaine problem because I can afford it."
Posted By : Taco John
Rick:
The question of "victimless crimes" s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 12:01:00
Rick:
The question of "victimless crimes" shows up again.
Why should the public be "outraged" over how athlete's spend their money?
Who is going to administer the lie detector tests?
Taco John:
In your comments I cannot determine if you support Mr. Barley's ability to gamle or not.
Posted By : Richard Mock
I think it's sad, but it's his problem. The only i...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 14:56:00
I think it's sad, but it's his problem. The only issue would be when athletes become gamblers in relation to their own game. The rest is just private business I guess... We can not expect each and everyone of these guys to act like role models.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
The rationale that the players can afford is not a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 15:56:00
The rationale that the players can afford is not a good one, I think.
Even if they can afford it, as Taco John mentioned, players can easily sink into not being able to afford it.
But worse, I have a problem with the lack of public outcry because of what the players are doing with their money. Yes, it is their money, and I know that players like Barkley do engage in philanthropic giving.
But instead of giving the money to worthy causes, giving back to their communities, responsibly investing, what are they doing? Giving it away to bookies and Las Vegas? I know that they have enough to do all of the above, but I don't know that this absolves them.
Back in the 1940's, athletes and gambling was not just frowned upon because of the gambling link - there was also the problem of athletes consorting with the gamblers, who were also involved in organized crime.
While I don't know if that is the case today, or if accusations have been made, shouldn't we be worried about our athletes possibly funnelling money towards criminals?
Posted By : Satchmo
What rational is there for OTHERS to determine how...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 17:41:00
What rational is there for OTHERS to determine how athlete's will spend THEIR money?
Sachmo:
Who cares if they give their money to bookies in Las Vegas?
NO!!! We should not be worried what others do with their money or possesions. If an illegiality occurs, prosecute the illegiality.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard - Of course we can't control how athletes ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 17:50:00
Richard - Of course we can't control how athletes spend their money. And we shouldn't be able to. That doesn't mean it should be encouraged.
Let's say an athlete wanted to get a few million dollar bills, and throw them through a shredding while throwing himself a ticker tape parade. That's his or her business. Of course, people would laugh at such irresponsibility. And if it became a habit, people would want them to stop being wasteful. Isn't it the same with gambling?
If gambling is such a problem, shouldn't we discourage athletes from funding the industry? It seems that one way to get at questionable activities is for the public to express their discontent.
Posted By : Satchmo
Satchmo:
I agree thgat your example is irre...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 18:42:00
Satchmo:
I agree thgat your example is irresponsible.
The core question, however, is how far should we, the authorities or the government go in curbing "irresponsible" activity?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard,
Thanks for the comments. I think ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 19:37:00
Richard,
Thanks for the comments. I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. I'm not saying that people SHOULD be outraged. My point is that, if people are outraged about steroid use, why aren't those same people outraged about gambling among athletes? Is it because maybe they themselves engage in some level of gambling?
You mention that gambling is a "victimless crime". Isn't injecting steroids a victimless crime too?
As far as who would administer the lie detector tests, I would say probably the same people who administer the drug tests, but I hadn't really thought about it.
But this is definitely not an issue of simply being irresponsible with spending money as you suggest (like over-spending on luxury items and "toys"). The side effects of gambling can be worse than steroids. Gambling at this level can lead to substance abuse, bankruptcy, depression and even suicide. And as I mentioned in the post, it is not a stretch to think that athletes heavily involved in gambling (especially with bookies) would have a tendency to bet on the sports in which they play -- which is supposedly the "cardinal sin" in sports.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Jeffrey:
Nice job of turning these two situ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 22:34:00
Jeffrey:
Nice job of turning these two situations around.
Do we not care what happens to the "victim' as long as our teams or their best players get to play?
Then you have the actual situation in which the prosecutor MAY be making a "political" play for votes.
Is "justice" served?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Rick:
Yes. Injecting steroids is also a vi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 22:56:00
Rick:
Yes. Injecting steroids is also a victimless crime as long it does not harm others.
I disagree with your contention that
gambling can lead to substance abuse, bankruptcy, depression and even suicide. It MAY or MAY not, depending on the individual and/or
actual situation.
Also, because an athlete gambles does not mean he/she uses a bookie.
My main point is that we should not over-react because an athlete will gamble, use steroids, etc. and bring the government or some other authority in to "solve" the situation.
Posted By : Richard Mock
I would like to know how much money Michael Jordan...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 23:39:00
I would like to know how much money Michael Jordan lost in gambling.
It is outrageous to say these players cannot gamble legally in vegas. understand not in the sport they play, however it is too my understanding that Barkley plays a lot of cards in vegas. It is not like they are running an illegal gambling operation. The hockey gambling ring should be causing more concern.
If people are lollowing rules and abiding by laws, then they have every right to stay within those boundaries.
Posted By : tommie
I think society unfaily labeled football players a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-06 - 23:45:00
I think society unfaily labeled football players as more likely to commit a crime and are not surprised to hear about these issues when involving football players.
Also maybe because the lacrosse players were rich white young males at one of the top ten school in the country.
Or maybe the location of where the crime occured, in Durham compared to Southern Cal.
Posted By : tommie
I don't think anyone is suggesting we throw Barkle...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 10:49:00
I don't think anyone is suggesting we throw Barkley in jail. But as Rick said, isn't it strange that we claim to care about victimless crimes like steroid use and not gambling?
I would have guessed it would be the other way around, with moral majority types saying gambling is a sin (and drug use is not, I guess).
I think we really care about these things only when it affects the integrity of the game. If steroid use produces more home runs, that messes with our sense of fairness. If Eddie Cicotte agrees to throw a World Series game, that's not fair because we want to see the Reds and White Sox duke it out for the championship. (When I say "we" I'm of course referring to our great great grandparents).
But if Cicotte wants to play the ponies, well, it's a free country. Sort of. There has always been the thought that gambling on one thing (horses, cards, etc.) leads to gambling on other things, like sports. I don't know if there is scientific research on that, but it should be a concern (if at all) only for active players, managers and front office people.
Pete Rose gambled on baseball (and horses) while managing the Reds and we pretty much hate him...though it isn't hard to do, considering Pete's personality. He says he didn't bet on Reds games. None of us believes him.
One of the things I find most interesting is that Barkley is the guy we are talking about. The guy who expressly told us 15-20 years ago "I am not a role model." THAT's why he spoke out. He doesn't care what we think, and in a lot of ways, I admire that.
I think, however, he may have hurt his chances to be governor of Alabama. :)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Isn't it similar to some of the things we see in l...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 11:10:00
Isn't it similar to some of the things we see in law school? Because of the curve it is a highly competitive enviroment where some will be left with low grades (the minors), some will get high grades (the majors) and some will book the class (the superstars). A law student wants to be in the latter class because it brings prestige, better job opportunities and money.
So if three classmates say "Emanuels is all you need to read for Con Law" the students buy Emanuels for Con Law. If during the first year you hear the optimal study group size is 4, then by God your three-person study group starts trolling for a fourth. If there is a rumor that Professor X gives better grades if you have neat handwriting, then you better give some thought to writing your exam neatly (somewhat obviated at law schools where you get to type exams).
There are better examples than those, but they aren't necessarily as entertaining. :)
The point is: not much thought is given to whether these things are really helpful. Will you starve for a week so you can afford the $40 for Emanuels, or will you just read your casebook and notes? Do you actually need a fourth study group member when the three existing members have good chemistry and complimentary talents? Should you put down your notes and casebook and practice your cursive for several hours? After at least 16 years of writing will your penmanship actually improve over a weekend?
You've just got to do these things or you'll fall behind everyone else.
I, for one, ate a can of tuna before every exam (theory: brain food...in a can). Of course, that wasn't really bad for me the way steroids are, although maybe I jacked up my mercury levels and harmed some dolphins. I wasn't "following the crowd" but I do know that when I told a friend about my superstition, my friend started eating tuna before exams, and I heard several other students were doing the same. :)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I go to law school and it may not be the correct c...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 12:03:00
I go to law school and it may not be the correct comparison, but when a player takes steroids he takes things away from everybody else playing the game fairly. I know some students who take drugs to help them study especially during exam time. Where do you draw the line?
They are not victimless because they effect everyone else who plays the "right" way.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie:
Why not consider legalizing steroid...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 13:10:00
Tommie:
Why not consider legalizing steroids and avoid punishing other "victimless" crimes to level the playing field?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Richard,
I did research on legalizing steroid...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 14:52:00
Richard,
I did research on legalizing steroids in college. I remember that the health risks involved are enough for the government to not legalize them. The government has to have an interest on the health of citizens, and banning steroids is a very legitimate interest.
I understand ciggarettes are bad and they are legal, but you also look at it from a baseball perspective. It is unfair to all the players, past and present.
You have to reward people who are willing to do things the right way and give them the benefit of the doubt, not criminals or people who are willing to take substantial risks, health in this case, and go voer the edge.
It is much more beneficial to make steroids illegal, than to legalize them.
Posted By : tommie
I actually think that the disproportionate media c...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 15:25:00
I actually think that the disproportionate media coverage of the Duke thing was more due to the environment of the alleged rape. Even if the USC guy did everything he's accused of, it doesn't reflect on the team itself beyond some ill-defined point where, sure, USC needs to shoulder some blame for recruiting someone with that "character."
By contrast, even if the Duke players didn't do anything that they're accused of, they still certainly, as a team, threw a party with strippers. The coaches might not have known about it, but the team aspect of it is still much stronger. Of course, the first breathless reports in the media seemed to indicate some sort of manic sexual free-for-all, which imprinted the incident on the minds of the public, and the subsequent reduction of blame from the team to three individuals does little to shake that initial impression.
Ultimately, then, the Duke scandal is a team one both in the actual actions of the team, and in the initial impressions (accurate or not) in the media and the public. A clearly individual act is easily separable.
Posted By : Anonymous
Tommie:
Thanks for your response.
Wh...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 16:59:00
Tommie:
Thanks for your response.
What justification is there for the government to become involved in the health of individual citizens?
You mentioned cigarettes.
What about alcohol and other undesirable substances?
Does not criminalizing substances create a underground?
If the government is involved does not the price for substances increase?
Do we not put more "recreational" users in prison?
I would rather this money be spent on treatment instead of punishment.
Posted By : Richard Mock
"In simple terms, minorities appeared "stacked" in...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 20:03:00
"In simple terms, minorities appeared "stacked" into some positions over others."
Since you were only throwing out the numbers for blacks how do you switch over to say all minorities are stacked? You didn't say all...but you also didn't stay consistent and say black either. A bit misleading?
I'm a Brewer fan and that team may or may not be the norm. Our infield has 2 everyday black starters, Rickie Weeks and Prince Fielder along w/ part-time starter Bill Hall. Not exactly stacked.
Our out field is 2 white guys, Jenkins and Brady...along with a Panamanian, Carlos Lee.
Our staff include White, Japanese, and Mexican pitchers.
Acting like there are only two colors of players in MLB isn't really telling the whole story.
Also, what are you trying to say by the 26% are drafted as outfielders (much higher number than other positions)? Are you telling us they are much better batters? Being an outfielder is not a bad thing, if that's what you were going for.
Posted By : cj
your an idiot
you do know a lot of college...
Message posted on : 2006-05-07 - 21:07:00
your an idiot
you do know a lot of college athletes dont have get scholarships? how would you feel to not be payed for your work, which is obviously sub par after reading this, as a professor.
wrap your brain around that.
Posted By : Anonymous
"There seems a high degree of skepticism about the...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 03:03:00
"There seems a high degree of skepticism about the complaint. Unlike other incidents where athletes may be practically assumed to be guilty, these players have been generally excused for any misbehavior."
There might be a good reason for skepticism; it seems where there is a large number of accused, these types of cases generally have "blown up" in the prosecutors'/accuser's faces due to lack of evidence or the story changes every time it's told, etc. I give as examples:
> A stripper accused seven Clemson football players of gang-rape (none convicted, no trials);
> A woman in Seattle claims 10 or 12 Cincinnati Bengals football players raped her in a hotel room (none convicted, and as far as I know, no trials due to lack of evidence);
> The cases at Colorado, used in a civil suit, where seven cases couldn't be prosecuted through lack of evidence (two cases had no DNA match, stories changed on several more, and even a former female kicker tried to blame players for something she never clarified or named names);
> Even at the Air Force Academy, where some charges went through and some cadets convicted, the evidence was shaky at best (all of the accusers were under age 21 and of lesser military rank than the accused; some even went on "Oprah" and told different stories than they told when attacks reported, etc.)
There are probably more such examples, as well as examples where players were found guilty; I'd like to hear about such cases.
It seems to me that when one hears about a gang-rape by an large number of players on an athletic team, one SHOULD be skeptical--even more so in a case like the Duke lacrosse case.
Melvin H.
P.S. Is there ANY legal recourse for the players NOT identified by the accuser (false accusation, libel/slander, etc.) against the accuser, the DA, the press, and/or any anti-rape groups (particularly those who published the players' names and photos on their Web sites )?
Posted By : Anonymous
Rick -
I think you are assuming the conclus...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 09:41:00
Rick -
I think you are assuming the conclusion when you ask "why would they risk (1) getting bulkier, (2) restricting range of motion..." If the steroids aren't taken in conjunction with a huge lifting program, I'm not sure it's accurate to assume those things. Besides, even if they are, yes pitchers do indeed take that chance and that risk all the time. It's a hypercompetitive environment, which you know. And while the risks aren't as big in their heads as they are in reality, it's a price that many have chosen to pay over the years because of the success of a few, and resulting pressure that that success has created.
The law school analogy is actually pretty decent. There is a pretty strong competitive mentality that you and I both should know something about given our baseball backgrounds.
Posted By : Bryan
I think the court made the right decision. The st...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 10:29:00
I think the court made the right decision. The students who received the letter had already accepted admission, and arguably a contractual relationship already exists between the student and school. Therefore, the rule is not being violated because the coach's letter is not being sent in order to "secure or retain" the student. Furthermore, the coach's letter doesn't arise to the level of "undue influence" by any means.
In my opinion and based upon my experiences, amateur athletes and their parents would actually appreciate the opportunity presented in the coach's letter, and will view it as a way to get better so that they can succeed at the next level. For example, more high school students are graduating a semester early (in December) and start college in January just so they can get any early start working out with the team. It's typically the professional athletes (not amateur athletes) that complain about having to do anything extra or beyond what is required of them under their contracts and collective bargaining agreements.
So, yes, the coach's letter simply reflects the old adage "that's just the way it is".
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Responses. First, sorry I'm slow, busy weekend gr...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 11:46:00
Responses. First, sorry I'm slow, busy weekend grading exams.
To "Taco John," yes, many athletes receive but a fraction of the "full-ride" scholarship I describe; some also argue that even the full ride is a bit short. My point is not that the athletes are getting rich, but that there is, even for the "underpaid" athletes, a clear compensatory element to a college scholarship, and that that element can in many cases be very significant, especially once we include the discounted earnings of a professional career.
To "anonymous" (who posts a lot here), again, my point in this first installment is not to defend the current pay scale or the various limits on professional contact imposed by the NCAA. I'm not saying all is right here. I'm saying that both sides in this debate start out on the wrong foot by ignoring the fact that these athletes are paid already, even if the source for part of that payment is the professional league who "pay" collegians by holding out a tangible chance at pro riches. How tangible? Enough so that college stars can borrow today against their future income stream.
As for the next-to-last anonymous poster, yes, in a way the nominal salary (the scholarship) of the athlete is capped, and no, I wouldn't prefer that situation for my job. But that's not the best analogy: what if my job paid a modest capped figure, but held out a chance at earnings that would set me and mine up financially for generations (plus get me a posse and courtside recognition at NBA games)? I might consider it, especially if I were 18 years old with no family obligations and just spent the summer making french fries. Many pay scales are capped (french fry makers), in essence, if only because they produce little marginal product revenue. That's why we workers try to choose away from those jobs. College scholarships? No shortage of suitors there. I'm sure many athletes participate for the love of the sport or to help the State U beat the arch-rival; here I'm focusing on the financial end of it, which is what this debate about paying student-athletes is all about.
To the last anonymous blogger who called me an idiot, I will dignify that comment with a response (because it's a nice day and my grades are done). I do know many student-athletes get much less than the full-ride; my description of the benefits of a scholarship pertained to the "highest level" athletes, as I said, by which I meant D-1 athletes in the major revenue sports. Still, you have a point, as I could have been more clear, so I'll take your "idiot" comment under advisement. I guess I could go back and make the original text more clear (the advantage of being on the inside of the blogger software), but that seems a bit like cheating, so I'll let the original qualifiers remain as my thoughts drift off into archive history.
Thanks everyone for your comments.
Posted By : TSLP
Is this the kind of thing about which sports un...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 13:37:00
Is this the kind of thing about which sports unions should be taking action?
Upholding CBA provisions intended to ensure the health and well-being of its members? Well, yes, that's exactly what the union should be doing.
Posted By : Chris D.
Prof. Standen,
I finally figured up how t...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 15:05:00
Prof. Standen,
I finally figured up how to sign up and get my name out there. I am the annoymous who mentioned indentured servitude. I thank you for mentioning your goal. This is a noble discussion as many young men and their families are put into furthur hardships with medical bills, travel costs, alcoholism, and improper education on their future as an athlete. I took a very negative tone earlier because you didn't mention your goal and too many people in today's society will take what you said and say end of story the kid's are paid, let's leave this topic. It is a passion of mine to allow these men and women an open market. College is suppose to assist all students no matter their passion in helping them get to the next plain. I am not an advocate for forcing universities to pay athltetes, I am an advocate for free market, so players can get a contract with Taco Bell, Nike, Ford, and American Airlines so they can have their other necessities met. I want the elimination of the NCAA rules and where Millionaire school presidents telling poor families they cannot capitalize on this moment and time when their son or daughter's value to get out of gang ridden ghettos, and off back breaking farms rather than waiting until eligible and risking injury. Anything I can do to assist to you from the athletes' view point, please let me know as I stated early I know the players get their scholarship and needs, but it's not necessarily equal to their value.
Posted By : John Dandin
As the son of a high school basketball, baseball a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 19:26:00
As the son of a high school basketball, baseball and track coach who even now has foreign exchange players on his teams (be it recruiting or not) this subject hits kind of close to home. I think it is also important to think of the opposite argument to what is proposed. The opposite argument is that is the coach being fair to the newly 'recruited' kids if he does not send them the letter about voluntary workouts or spring practice. Without this knowledge, to people who are not on campus to learn it some other way, the kid might be behind coming in Freshman year and as a project of sports teams in high school if you get behind someone in your own class you may never be able to get out of their shadow in a coachs eye. I also agree with the previous comment that this basically how it is for better or worse, I think this is more of a systemic problem of allowing private schools to compete with public schools that don't have the ability to offer benefits to students or may be hamstrung by districting where private schools are not. As a side note I found it interesting in the comments to the TSSAA rule they had the question about contact exactly answered in favor of TSSAA.
Posted By : Brian B
First, when you argue that present players are not...
Message posted on : 2006-05-08 - 19:39:00
First, when you argue that present players are not the true generators of revenue, you are correct. Many programs generate their revenue based on their history and not necessarily the specific players. But this is no different than professional sports. The Cubs are not the perennial powerhouse that Duke is, but their revenue is based a lot of the culture surrounding the team, and not necessarily the individual players. The high player turnover illustrates this; the teams continue to maintain a steady revenue with different players.
Further, while NFL teams may struggle in finding a value for players, they are able to do it. They make mistakes, but in the end they ARE able to find a value for each player, even the linemen. Sure, it is more difficult to dod that with younger players, but colleges could find the value of each player. Such an inquiry is the basis of recruiting.
Posted By : Martin
I am a proponent of players receiving their fair m...
Message posted on : 2006-05-09 - 08:46:00
I am a proponent of players receiving their fair market value for their time and effort playing intercollegiate sports. What I am not in favor of is universities becoming professional sports organizations. These differences in value and pay by performance should not be handled by an educational institution. As you posted in your first article most students receive an opportunity to live on campus, be fed, and most importantly have their books and school paid for; in my opinion this is the main compensation the university should be responsible for. The university should also pay the time spent in meetings, weight room, and on the field in practice and play as campus student jobs and the rate of pay should be equal to all other student jobs. The Head Coach will be responsible for time sheet accuracy like they are on the student assistants they hire. The bulk of a student-athletes market value compensation should come from their own efforts and where I find the NCAA rules to be out dated. Each individual player is able to fend for themself, so if a booster or a corporation wanted to pay for Reggie Bush's parents to live in a house in a nice suburb instead of the ghetto, that is fine. The one potential issue you run into in this scenario is game fixing potentially, or selfish attitudes, but isn't that what we are paying the Millions of dollars for the head coach to handle on the sideline or are we paying them to just be a spokesperson for the university?
Posted By : John Dandin
The whole race/bias issue does indeed exist, thoug...
Message posted on : 2006-05-09 - 18:41:00
The whole race/bias issue does indeed exist, though in my opinion it is far overstated. And nowhere is racism LESS prevalent than in sports, though certain ideologues try to inject it.
Posted By : Anonymous
Geoffrey:
Without subpoena power or grand j...
Message posted on : 2006-05-09 - 23:11:00
Geoffrey:
Without subpoena power or grand jury authority Mr. Mitchell has a way to go to obtain the records he may need.
Confessions are a long shot, may be mostly circumstantial and can be dis-credited.
I look forward to your future comments on this subject.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Well, isn't one of the reasons why GTA: San Andres...
Message posted on : 2006-05-10 - 18:38:00
Well, isn't one of the reasons why GTA: San Andres, Natural Born Killers, Ozzy, Judas Priest, et al don't shoulder any liability is because the accusations against them are general rather than specific in nature? Or rather, that the things they are accused of advocating are general? GTA does not call for the murder of John H. Smith of 219 Park Avenue, Gotham, USA. Rather, they simply foster a nebulously defined "culture of violence" or somesuch. The Post, on the other hand, doesn't even advocate brushbacks against the Sox in general, but against one particular person. It's far, far more specific and therefore the comparisons you advance don't really seem appropriate.
collin
Posted By : Anonymous
query if there is any situation with which Michell...
Message posted on : 2006-05-10 - 18:41:00
query if there is any situation with which Michelle Malkin would not have a problem.
collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Collin: That's a good factual distinction and it i...
Message posted on : 2006-05-10 - 19:34:00
Collin: That's a good factual distinction and it is worth reiterating--that the Post's "message" is directed at a particular individual rather than a group of persons or a "culture of violence" if you will--but I'm not sure the factual distinction changes the tort analysis for media and entertainment companies: for reasons noted in the post, in neither a specific instance of alluding to an increased risk of violence directed against one person nor a general encouragement of violence would a media or entertainment entity likely be exposed to tort liability.
I also think this is a good outcome. Using tort law to restrict the freedoms of media and entertainment companies seems inconsistent with our culture of freedom of speech.
Posted By : Michael McCann
This is a big, big reach my man to equate this wit...
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 14:52:00
This is a big, big reach my man to equate this with Maurice and child labor laws. I think you need a nice long summer break and lay off certain types of beverages.
Posted By : Anonymous
Thank you for catching the irony in my post. I wi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 16:02:00
Thank you for catching the irony in my post. I will be sure to add a ";)" next time for your benefit!
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
;)
Maybe its me that needs the summer break.
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 16:22:00
;)
Maybe its me that needs the summer break.
Posted By : Anonymous
LOL LOL, sideways smiley face!
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 16:54:00
LOL LOL, sideways smiley face!
Posted By : Anonymous
L.A. Psychologist Who Didn't Get Tote Bag at Mothe...
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 18:18:00
L.A. Psychologist Who Didn't Get Tote Bag at Mother's Day Angel Game Files Lawsuit
By Dave McKibben, Times Staff Writer
May 11, 2006
link on name too
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-suit11may11,0,7425075.story
"Michael Cohn's class-action claim in Orange County Superior Court alleges that thousands of males and fans under 18 were "treated unequally" at a "Family Sunday" promotion last May and are entitled to $4,000 each in damages."
___
The giveaway was a mother's day giveaway.. This might not be sports law but a sports management issue. Is there any credible chance here?
Posted By : Ryguy
Re: Michael Cohn: Just another reason why we need ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-11 - 18:24:00
Re: Michael Cohn: Just another reason why we need to adopt the English Rule. I don't suppose he also spilled McDonald's coffee on himself and slipped and fell in a stall in a casino, too.
Posted By : Anonymous
Why can't people follow rules?
Reggie Bush has ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 08:53:00
Why can't people follow rules?
Reggie Bush has never played a down in the NFL, and he is trying to change the rules. It may only be a number, but it is a rule in stone for the coorporation he WORKS for.
Posted By : tommie
"Rules?" - Maurice
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 09:05:00
"Rules?" - Maurice
Posted By : Anonymous
Well Tommie if a rule is stupid and antiquated, sa...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 09:37:00
Well Tommie if a rule is stupid and antiquated, say if there were a law that makes it a crime to shear someone else's sheep and it has a criminal penalty involved with doing so, then maybe the rule should be looked at again by the governing authority. That is all R. Bush is asking for, to look at the rule and see if it is still needed. They let receivers change the rules to wear more than just 80, they let Keyshawn wear a teens number because he was the 4th string quarterback or something. Exceptions are nothing new. Bush is simply making a request that the thing is an actual law in my state.
Posted By : B.C. Barnes
Why is this even a rule? I can understand it for ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 10:02:00
Why is this even a rule? I can understand it for offensive lineman, but what does it matter if the safety wears 16 and the kicker wears 89?
Posted By : Pinski
So why does Keyshawn Johnson and other wide receiv...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 10:33:00
So why does Keyshawn Johnson and other wide receivers (Troy Williamson), wear #19 or other numbers in the #10's?
I can certainly see why Bush would be more marketable with #5. The argument goes that people, especially in Southern Cal, will be more likely to buy the #5 NO jersey, than, say, a #25 NO jersey since they're so attached to Reggie Bush as being #5.
And isn't there a personal side to this as well? Haven't other NFL players entered the league with their college numbers? Didn't Herschel Walker wear #34 throughout his career? Considering how superstitious some players are about this kind of thing, I am a little surprised this hasn't been a problem before.
Posted By : Satchmo
Pinski:
Excellent questions!!!
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 10:48:00
Pinski:
Excellent questions!!!
Posted By : Richard Mock
Some rules may not be needed, but have some respec...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 13:20:00
Some rules may not be needed, but have some respect and follow them. They are not causing a hardship on him. But then again we are talking about Reggie Bush, someone who seems to have broken quite a few rules at USC over the past year. It goes deeper than just a number. have some respect for your place of employment.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie:
What is the relationship between wh...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 13:49:00
Tommie:
What is the relationship between what number Bush wears and "seems to have broken quite a few rules at USC"?
If the number is available is it possible his employer does not care what number he wears?
Posted By : Richard MOck
Richard:
The rule states Reggie Bush cannot wea...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 15:59:00
Richard:
The rule states Reggie Bush cannot wear number 5.
Reggie Bush broke rules at USC.
Reggie Bush is trying to change a rule the NFL has.
Therefore Reggie Bush has a disregard for rules.
This could equal less character. Maybe this is why nobody wanted to trade up for him when he was available. He seems to think he is bigger than the game, and more of a me first, rather than a team player.
I may have a bias against players like this, because I love players that are more worried about playing the game and winning. I feel having a respect for rules is one of the first things you can tell about a player and his attitude.
As for the employer, I was referring to the NFL, as they are the ones who make the rules. I am sure the Saints do not care. If picking a number is such a big prioity for a player, especially when changing the league rules, then how many distractions will this player cause?
That is my view, and probaly why teams choose to build teams with mostly "team " players now. Like the 49ers, Jets, Texans, and Patriots.
Maybe he will be great, however I do not blame the Texans, Jets, and 49ers for passing up the opportunity to take him or move up to get him.
Posted By : tommie
Geoff,
Good summary, and interesting discus...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 18:58:00
Geoff,
Good summary, and interesting discussion. Just wanted to fix a typo -- the Curt Flood Act was 1998 (not 1988). Look forward to reading the next two parts.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Thanks! Fixed it.
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 22:43:00
Thanks! Fixed it.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Tommie:
Thanks for your response.
Is...
Message posted on : 2006-05-12 - 23:23:00
Tommie:
Thanks for your response.
Is the "position by number rule" set in concrete or can it (the rule)be changed?
What rules did Mr. Bush break at USC?
It does not necessarily follow that if Mr. Bush is attempting to change a NFL rule he will disregard ALL other rules.
Because he wants to were a certain number does not mean he will be a distraction. We need to wait for results on this.
If my memory serves, Reggie Bush went second in the draft. I do not know if the Jets or 49ers tried to "trade up" for him or not. What is your information?
Posted By : Anonymous
Prof. Standen,
There's nothing intrinsicall...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 08:34:00
Prof. Standen,
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with lock-step compensation, as your union example points out, but there is something wrong when employers impose in on employees. If athletes chose to bargain for a lock-step system, so be it, but they deserve that choice like every other employee.
Another thing, you continue to claim that athletes receive a scholarship that has a "value" of $40,000. It's almost certain that THEY do not value college at $40,000 a year, i.e., they would not actually pay that amount to go to their chosen school. In addition, most other students do not pay anywhere near the full tuition price either. Whatever the value of an athlete's scholarship is, it is significantly lower than $40,000 a year.
Finally, you assume that if payments were allowed scholarships would cease to exist, but that is also untrue. A scholarship is an ideal type of compensation for both parties because the marginal cost to the school of an additional student is actually very low (- 3,000-7,000 depending on the school), whereas the athlete likely values his education more than that (but less than $40,000). Thus, athletes whose MRPs are lower than $40,000 per year are still likely to obtain a scholarship because marginal costs to schools of awarding a scholarship is significantly lower than $40,000.
Posted By : Anonymous
The rule can be changed, but needs to be recommend...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 09:44:00
The rule can be changed, but needs to be recommended and then approved by 24 owners, as the blog states.
I read reports that the house Reggie Bush's parents were living in was only the tip of the iceberg for what Reggie did. I believe he knew about the house his parents leases, it jsut seems to obvious not too.
We do need to wait for results, maybe he will be the first running back to carry a team to super bowl in years, if not ever. I just picturing him as being better than Desmond Howard, who was good but not as god as expected. But not as good as Marshall Faulk. That may be a large window, but I just see him more as a better return man than RB, it is difficult to say that will all the positive hype surrounding his ability.
As for the draft, I heard the Jets, 49ers and even the Raiders could have jumped up. I heard the Texans wanted to move down, and put several calls into the Jets so they could stay in the top 4. I do not think the Texans ever wanted him. But, there are so many draft rumors out there, nobody will ever know what is the truth, and what is a mere smokescreen.
Posted By : tommie
Tommie:
For the record I posted comments on...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 11:17:00
Tommie:
For the record I posted comments on 5/15/2006 and it was not anonymous.I get confused sometimes with all the different ways to post comments. Sorry to all!!!
Just one comment. What may APPEAR to be obvious" MAY not be factual. We all need to be careful in assuming what may or may not be true.
Thanks for clarifying the method necessary to change the NFL rule on numbering.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Tommie and all:
0 for 2 this am. Got the w...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 11:21:00
Tommie and all:
0 for 2 this am. Got the wrong date in my last post.
I hope my day gets better.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Thanks for all the comments. Let's assume that th...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 11:56:00
Thanks for all the comments. Let's assume that this is a stupid rule by everybody's definition (but I don't think it is because they have the rule for some reason, i.e. because it's easier on the referees if certain positions hold certain numbers, tradition, whatever). So the question becomes what do we do about a stupid rule implemented by an employer that is not discriminatory, is not an illegal restraint on trade, is not a constitutional violation (thus, different from a situation involving criminal penalties as Brian suggests)? If your employer had a stupid rule that all employees had to wear green to work because the employer thinks that wearing the color of money would make everyone work harder, would you show up on the first day wearing red and then challenge the rule saying it's stupid and antiquated, and you work better in red?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
In Italian soccer, the three worst teams from the ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 17:43:00
In Italian soccer, the three worst teams from the top division each year are relegated to the lower division, while the top three teams from the lower divisions move up. Teams can also be relegated as a result of filing for bankruptcy, which happened to Napoli last year and Fiorentina in 2001-2002. Essentially, Italian Soccer officials retain the ability to automatically promote and relegate teams in the best interests of the gain. Given the financial situation, it seems unlikely any of the teams mentioned in the scandal will be relegated. However, several of these squads could be prevented from competing in the European Champions League next year, which would be a substantial economic penalty.
Posted By : Anonymous
How does/would Title IX affect paying athletes?
Message posted on : 2006-05-13 - 18:41:00
How does/would Title IX affect paying athletes?
Posted By : Anonymous
Those Carabinieri people mush love searching sport...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 01:42:00
Those Carabinieri people mush love searching sports related activities... weren't they pretty heavily involved in the Drug Testings in the Turin Olympics too?
Posted By : S.C.
Geoffrey:
A better balance is needed betwee...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 11:27:00
Geoffrey:
A better balance is needed between the Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) and Major League Baseball (MLB).
A good example is when the MLBPA was allowed to insert a clause in the present Collective Barganing Agreement (CBA) that if an agreement is not reached by August 1st of this year the CBA will revert to the previous agreement agreed to in 2002.
This can have the effect of eliminating the substance use agreement in the present CBA.
Why the owners agreed to this I will never know!!!
Posted By : Richard Mock
The story and some of the comments are off base. ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 13:52:00
The story and some of the comments are off base. The _RED SOX_ paid for the police escort, not the taxpayers.
Posted By : Anonymous
The story and some of the comments are off base. ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 13:52:00
The story and some of the comments are off base. The _RED SOX_ paid for the police escort, not the taxpayers.
Posted By : Anonymous
I want to quibble with your suggestion that player...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 19:10:00
I want to quibble with your suggestion that players are compensated both by getting a free education and getting an education/degree. Unless you're saying that the players are being admitted to college only because they are athletes, and would otherwise have that opportunity closed to them, then I think you're double-counting the scholarship benefit. What players are getting out of a scholarship isn't actual pay. They are getting free education, free housing while in college, free food while in college, etc. So they're getting a college education/experience paid for. That culminates, theoretically, in a degree. I don't see those as separable benefits that accrue to the athletes.
Posted By : Tim Gerheim
If Juve is found to have been involved then they s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-14 - 21:23:00
If Juve is found to have been involved then they should be relegatet to Serie B. Although, on past form of the Lega Calcio it probably won't happen. Roma and Lazio were spared that fate when it was found they were insolvent. They had the pull that Fiorentina and Napli didn't.
The league is an absolute mess. Even before this Juve had been investigated for doping. Other league team's tifosi regularly cause trouble leading to stadium bans. The national broadcaster RAI (I watch RAI International) broadcasts games as if it were 1985. Just a complete mess.
Posted By : Anonymous
Thanks for the comments.
On the Title IX...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 00:21:00
Thanks for the comments.
On the Title IX question, good question; I'm not sure of the answer. I've read more than one authority who concludes that paying certain male athletes would require the same for certain female athletes. But I have not done that research and am not claiming that conclusion as my own.
As for the thoughtful contentions made by the first commentator, I respectfully disagree on several fronts. First, I do not think it "wrong" for schools to "impose" a lock-step system. It's just the good the school is selling, just as Walmart may choose to sell only blue and white dress shirts; in my mind, it's just business, and there's nothing right or wrong about it. As I argued in Part II, it is too difficult to determine the marginal product revenue of incoming athletes. It's a bit easier after some data is in, which is why schools will enhance (or diminish) academic scholarships once the grades come out. But given the difficulty of determining marginal product, it makes sense for schools to offer more uniform deals.
On the second point, yes, tuition is discounted, everywhere (but don't tell parents this: everyone just keep saving). But the nominal price of tuition simply allows for price discrimination. How much would someone pay for an athletic scholarship to Duke, with the fame, fun and chance at fortune? It will vary; some would bankrupt themselves for such a chance; others might be just as happy to go to State and save the money. I guess it would depend on one's athletic endowment and career expectations. (I'd love to see Duke put up one athletic basketball scholarship, with a guaranteed spot on the team, on Ebay. Why don't schools do this? Oh, they do, sort of. I've heard of more than one wealthy kid who got to play first base for a D-1 college, thanks to Daddy's gift to the endowment.) I don't mean to sound dismissive, but there's just no way to determine personal utility. But still, I was using the nominal price and you are right to point out that the problem of determining value is more nuanced.
On your third paragraph, I don't think I assume that salary and scholarships cannot coexist, or even be blended in a total compensation package. Indeed, that's sort of how academic scholarships (which are not limited by NCAA rules) are done. But even with that said, the cost of scholarships to a University must also include the reservation price, which is the potential value that is used up once the scholarship is awarded and cannot be awarded again. In cost accounting terms scholarships may be cheap, but to a coach they're precious.
Best I can do. Thanks again for the comments.
Posted By : TSLP
Prof. Standen,
Good response to my initial ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 10:00:00
Prof. Standen,
Good response to my initial comment. I have just one thing to add. I, like you, do not object when a single employer imposes a wage scale on his employees. My objection comes from schools colluding to impose wage scales on their employees. Clearly, Exxon is allowed to impose some kind of wage scale on their employees, but they cannot collude with BP and Texaco to do it. See Todd v. Exxon Corp.
To argue that the market clears anyway, even with the price collusion, and thus no harmful output reduction occurs, does not sufficiently answer this objection because 1) absolute player quality likely decreases; and 2) player resources and likely to be inefficiently distributed among teams. This is the basic point behind an article I'm currently writing that argues that player compensation rules should be set at the conference, rather than NCAA, level.
Posted By : Anonymous
Joe Montana was anti-union and instrumental in bre...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 10:51:00
Joe Montana was anti-union and instrumental in breaking the NFLPA. Why on earth would the union even lift a finger to help him, especially when he's not even in its bargaining unit anymore?
Posted By : Chris D.
This post full of ridiculous assumptions, faulty l...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 11:04:00
This post full of ridiculous assumptions, faulty logic and a lack of understanding of unions' roles in professional sports. Unions have fueled economic competition and growth in professional sports and the players they represent have prospered along with club owners. Geoff, sorry you don't like the fact that players choose to bargain collectively but it's their right.
Posted By : Anonymous
The fact that ESPN broadcasts it three months late...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:13:00
The fact that ESPN broadcasts it three months late is a pretty good indicator of how much editing it must do to make a poker tourney entertaining (from a fan perspective). Besides editing out the umpteen number of games that involve almost no strategy, there's the commentary and the "what's in his hand?" graphics.
It would be awesome to play in WSOP, but I can't imagine non-family members watching the games live on-site.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I'm torn by this issue, because while college spor...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:27:00
I'm torn by this issue, because while college sports is big business and the athletes are economically exploited within that system, I still like the idea that college athletics is part of the educational experience.
Of course, my latter thought is a fantasy at a lot of schools. We've already slid a fair way down the mountain on that issue. Yet, I have some resistance to implementing any system that plunges us the rest of the way down the mountain, so that 10 years from now no one can remember that school athletics ever were a part of the education process. High school sports will be next.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Finally! Something that makes soccer entertaining....
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:29:00
Finally! Something that makes soccer entertaining.
Maybe the professional bowlers should "plant" a story about cheating or doping.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Parts of Montana's argument don't make sense to me...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:42:00
Parts of Montana's argument don't make sense to me. He keeps referring to "the NFL wants us to help them". Why don't the athletes say "no"? It is a marketplace. If a player is upset about the $1,000 spending money, maybe the player shouldn't go.
I'd go to the Super Bowl if someone paid for my flight and gave me $1,000. I guess I'm not surprised that Montana is so spoiled as to be mystified by how someone could get by on a $1,000 over a weekend. Oh, the hardship!
As for the worker's comp claim, most of us know the potential injuries associated with our jobs. Our employers are required to provide safety measures, whether it's a hard hat or an ergonomic keyboard. The NFL provides state of the art protective equipment for a high impact sport. This is not an issue of injuries that neither player nor employer (or only the employer) knew about.
Did Montana think he was completely protected? Had he ever met a former NFL player? Because they are all gimpy in one way or another. I've known about the plight of former players since I was about 6 years old, about the time I got my first football for my birthday.
Montana was paid millions of dollars to take that punishment. If he wanted strong post-career knees, he should have taken more accounting courses at Notre Dame.
What's next, will he be suing the 49ers for providing an offensive line that occasionally caused him to be sacked? So should be David Carr.
If Jim Brown or some leather helmeted player wants to complain about the wear and tear, I'll listen. But not a player from the 80s and 90s.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Agreed. It is clear from televised professional s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:45:00
Agreed. It is clear from televised professional sports that athletes complain about perfectly good calls all the time (e.g., Rasheed Wallace has never been fouled in his life).
I suspect just knowing there are replacement officials magnifies that pre-existing tendency to feel persecuted.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
These players get played a lot of money to play th...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:51:00
These players get played a lot of money to play the game. They choose the profession knowing the risks. They do not complain when they are playing and getting paid more than most people in this country.
As for Montana, that package the NFL gave him was not that bad, they could have had him driving in a lot worse cars than a cadillac. Although I heard the NFL has a deal with Cadillac and doesnt pay for the cars. It seems Montana wnats special treatment beause he is one of the greatest players to play the game. But should the NFL play favorites?
Posted By : tommie
I knew there was a good reason why Delmon threw hi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 12:52:00
I knew there was a good reason why Delmon threw his bat at the umpire :)
Posted By : Rick Karcher
How bout some statistics to back up the replacemen...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 13:00:00
How bout some statistics to back up the replacement umpires are biased.
Link
Posted By : Pinski
Rules? - M.Clarett
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 15:13:00
Rules? - M.Clarett
Posted By : Anonymous
I grew up with a BB gun and never shot myself or a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 18:14:00
I grew up with a BB gun and never shot myself or anyone else. Chapelheel makes a good point when he says that it's up to parents "to decide whether kids should have those 'toys' and when they are permitted to use them." I wasn't allowed to shoot toward the church that was next door and I always had to tell them when I was going out. I can also say that they cannot cause "serious" injury unless someone is shot in the face, it can penetrate the skin but won't cause any permanent damage (obviously there are exceptions, but, without any data, I would guess that 99% of bb gun accidents do NOT result in permanent damage).
Posted By : Jeff
How long do they play each day? When I play with ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-15 - 18:19:00
How long do they play each day? When I play with my friends it can take 5 or 6 hours, and that's with only 5-8 people.
Posted By : Jeff
I have a problem with your underlying assumptions....
Message posted on : 2006-05-16 - 03:01:00
I have a problem with your underlying assumptions. First there are studies out there that show that strikes have no long-term effect on the sport:
"A Major League Baseball players strike would have no long-term effect on attendance"
"[F]ans do not hold a grudge when games are taken away"
Second, what evidence do you have for a pyschological effect? I didn't hear about any Canadians committing suicide because they lost the NHL. Montreal, Toronto, etc seem to still exist.
Third, if stadia don't really bring economic benefits, as most of the studies seem to point to, how then does the lack of a sports team "harm" the economics of an area.
Finally, a strike is not by far the worst thing in the world, beyond the other two red herrings you throw out. I would think that there are many other problems to consider that will have far more economic/psychological problems. For example when the housing bubble bursts.
Posted By : Pinski
Michelle Wie seems destined to make history. Just ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-16 - 16:27:00
Michelle Wie seems destined to make history. Just today I was reading in The Guardian on-line that she will be playing the men's European Golf Tour. This when 8 months ago directors from the European Tour were dismissing the prospect of a woman battling out amongst men as ludicrous. Discrimination, be it based on age or gender, seems unsustainable if an excepcionally gifted athlete is presented. But I still think that as a general rule age and gender restrictions make some kind of sense, to curb excessive behaviour. Maybe we should just be ready to accept that special cases warranting exemptions will come along and that the assessment of the merits of each athlete is undertaken in a coherent manner.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
It is not that hard to understand. Follow the mon...
Message posted on : 2006-05-16 - 19:47:00
It is not that hard to understand. Follow the money $$$$, Wie in the field helps TV Ratings for the USGA. Even if she had not played well enough to be in the top 35 money winners, the USGA would have given her an exemption because she looks great in pink or some other nonsense.
Posted By : Anonymous
Wie should stay on the womens tour and play agains...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 03:54:00
Wie should stay on the womens tour and play against the women. She hasn't won anything of note and should learn how to win before trying to beat the men, which I believe she will never beat the top players on the PGA tour.
Posted By : Anonymous
But the differance is obvious. Wie has been able ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 08:17:00
But the differance is obvious. Wie has been able to play against professional players in her sport and show here merit under those circumstances. Basketball and Football are team sports so any ranking of a single player is subjective. In addtion the competition is designed in a lock step fashion so these player have only gone up against similar level players.
Prehaps there is room for an merit based exemption policy, at least in basketball. The player who wants in to the draft could play one-on-one against a rookie selected by the commisioner for an exemption. It would probably generate an intersting revenue stream.
I can't see a merit based way to do football, but in that case an age minimum seem like a very good idea. I really don't think taking pro tackles before your bones stop growing would be good.
Posted By : vrimj
Vrimj - I see your point about safety, but in men ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 10:47:00
Vrimj - I see your point about safety, but in men (and women too, I believe), bone growth and development can happen well into the early 20s - would you propose setting the minimum age limit that high?
The point about safety and age limits would hold valid if you could show that younger players are never ready to play against veterans in the NFL, by virtue of a lack of experience or lack of sufficient weight training. But if there are exceptions to this, should a hard age floor exist?
As for the subjective ranking of players, you have a point. It's definitely easier to evaluate Wie since you can look at % greens, putting numbers, scores compared to the field, etc.
However, it still holds that the best prep-to-pro basketball players are consensus top picks, or at least top 10 picks. In the case of basketball, even though prep-to-pro players haven't played against anyone but high schoolers, scouts and analysts have still been able to identify the best of the best with a good measure of success.
If they have problems doing so, the onus is on them to scout better and be able to evaluate talent better, not on the NBA to set an age limit giving scouts more time to evaluate said players.
As for the earlier idea that "general rule age and gender restrictions make some kind of sense, to curb excessive behaviour," is it really age or gender that is so responsible for excessive behaviour? I will advance the theory right now that instituting an age floor in the NBA will absolutely NOT affect drug use, crime rate and general misbehavior in any significant degree - whether you think it is the culture, the money or both, I don't think age limits are any kind of solution.
In fact, the best and only reason I can come up with for an age floor is that there is potentially a negative effect on players who aspire to play in the NBA and don't make it. If you can show that as a result of prep-to-pro players like LeBron, kids are dismissing the concept of college and concentrating excessively on jumping from high school to the NBA, to the extent that when the majority of them don't make it, they aren't prepared for college or an alternative to going to the NBA, then I can see the rationale for an age floor.
Of course, this would mean that the NBA is responsible for all these kids and is considering the interests of the players who DON'T end up in the NBA by setting an age floor, which is not something I've heard the NBA discuss.
I don't know if you can show the above point in any statistically significant manner - in fact, even if you could conduct a study, I believe that it is just as possible that aspiring athletes will try harder in school (isn't this the underlying assumption of the NCAA?).
Posted By : Satchmo
Wow. A refreshing sports law decision! Participant...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 11:56:00
Wow. A refreshing sports law decision! Participants actually not victims of society? Now, just imagine if Casey Martin gets hit in Hawaii, while on a cart, and "fore" was not exclaimed. Gee, would he be able to (successfully) sue under the ADA?...better yet, could Michael Cohn sue and somehow allege gender discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act?
Posted By : Anonymous
Geoffrey:
You over state the "disaster" tha...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 14:08:00
Geoffrey:
You over state the "disaster" that might occur if a baseball strike should occur.
With two headstrong parties (owners v. players) going after each other possible the best result would be for the "chips to fall where they may".
Sure, some disruptions will occur but not the "disaster" you forecast.
Baseball is a great game but I worry about other issues such as warrantless searches, secrecy in government, budget deficits and the general direction the present administration is headed.
I, too, hope there is no strike, but I also trust that the government does not get involved.
Posted By : Richard Mock
It is all about money. The LPGA needs help, and if...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 14:28:00
It is all about money. The LPGA needs help, and if you could do a study of how many people would attend or watch just for her, I am sure there is a significant increase because of her. They are hoping she has the impact Tiger Woods had on the Men's game, attracting a larger audience to watch and even play the game.
Posted By : tommie
On this topic, ALR has a very good annotation: 53 ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 14:38:00
On this topic, ALR has a very good annotation: 53 ALR 4th 282 (2004): Liability to one struck by a golf ball.
In addition to requiring a recklessness or intentionality standard, many courts have held that assumption of risk is a valid defense if the person struck is another player, familiar with the game of golf.
Posted By : Eric S.
Tommie is correct. Forget ethics. gender, age and ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 15:46:00
Tommie is correct. Forget ethics. gender, age and law. This is all about Money. Period.
Posted By : Anonymous
The holding of this case seems to me to be very fa...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 18:12:00
The holding of this case seems to me to be very fact specific. If the plaintiff was in the middle of the fairway or on the green, and the defendant was hitting up on her, then it MIGHT be a different result because a warning might actually prevent somebody from being struck in that situation. But this particular plaintiff was struck by a bouncing golfball on the cart path that ultimately struck her as she was driving in her cart while emerging from behind a restroom building. It's a freak accident. Was the defendant expected to chase his ball as it was bouncing along the cart path and yell "fore" every few seconds?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Sense of humor, Rick! Hey, aren't all cases fact s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 18:21:00
Sense of humor, Rick! Hey, aren't all cases fact specific? My advice: don't play golf in hawaii OR play golf in Hawaii with a hockey mask (assuming that does not give an unfair advantage like a Casey Martin cart) OR give up golf and become a chess player OR, finally, just suck it up and be a "man."
Posted By : Anonymous
As successful as she may be, this job should requi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 19:37:00
As successful as she may be, this job should require experice in the sports industry, especially football. She should not be elevated to the top job in the NFL. Maybe a lower level job and work her way up to commissioner.
I believe experience in the NFL is a must for this job. It is a different game than any other sport, and experience will factor in towards her success.
Posted By : tommie
In the good ole days that would be a given that "P...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 21:22:00
In the good ole days that would be a given that "Papi" or any hitter who got too comfortable at the plate would wind up on his butt. Pitchers made their living brushing back hitters. Todays athletes are too coddled because of the amount of money they make. I wish we could go back to the time when Baseball was a sport you played for the love of the game and not the size of the paycheck. http://www.authenticsignedsports.com/
Posted By : Authentic_Signed_Sports
They shouldnt get paid
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 21:39:00
They shouldnt get paid
Posted By : Anonymous
If I could only predict things that would make me ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-17 - 21:55:00
If I could only predict things that would make me rich!
Posted By : Michael McCann
How would banning athletes from a website help at ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 17:10:00
How would banning athletes from a website help at all? If they're going to violate the rules and haze, they're not going to have a huge problem posting photos on the net. All it would do is make things just a little bit more ridiculous for rule-obeying athletes.
Posted By : Adam
Okay, I have some questions which are colored in <...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 17:48:00
Okay, I have some questions which are colored in absolutely no way by the fact that I'm a Northwestern letterman myself. And no, I did not undergo any hazing.
While certainly distasteful and embarrassing, this stuff is not anywhere near what happened in Durham. The university ban on hazing was broken, and...well, that seems to be about it. Oh, and drinking.
The humiliation which is at the center of this scandal was less in the acts themselves than in their revelation. By contrast, the acts themselves were the problem at Duke.
Now, that said, I think that every single non-freshman member of the NU soccer team should be kicked out of school.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Obviously, when I said I had questions I meant tha...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 17:49:00
Obviously, when I said I had questions I meant that I didn't have questions so much as I had an observation. And I'm an idiot.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
ChapelHeel, much more attention is given to "real"...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 18:14:00
ChapelHeel, much more attention is given to "real" guns... It sickens me.
21,000 people were injured? Ok. That's not good. I had BB guns when I was growing up and never hurt anyone with them (although, many a milk jug died by my hands).
How many people are injured by automobiles every day? Cell Phones? What about pencils? I was stabbed in the hand with a pencil and still have a mark from where it hit me. Maybe we should ban those. While we're at it, can we make it mandatory for people to wear helmets? You know, just in case they fall or something.
I'm pro-choice on everything.. By the way, Jackson has a gun-show in town on the 27th... I'm thinking of trading my 1911 (evil stainless steel .45) for a M4 (evil black "assault rifle")
:)
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Hazing? That's funny. I've heard of everything fro...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 18:37:00
Hazing? That's funny. I've heard of everything from beastiality to involvement with human feces/urine. This...this is not hazing.
Underage drinking, blindfolds, simulated sex acts and more clothes than are usually worn on the beach, oh my. I've never heard of such things at college before! What's this world coming to?
Of course the university has to take action now that it's been brought up, but this is not the big deal people are making it out to be. The flavor of the spring and summer seems to be "Faults of athletes".
Sounds like the owner of Badjocks.com didn't get enough high fives in high school. I really like the way he spins the photos by showing a photo where "at least the seniors are having fun" when in all but one picture just about everyone's smiling.
If people have such an issue with these actions, I suggest they take a good look outside of sports culture and seriously evaluate college culture, because none of this stuff is rare on campus for both athletes and non-athletes.
Posted By : Anonymous
Er, to clarify on my other comment, I've heard of ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 18:40:00
Er, to clarify on my other comment, I've heard of other, legitmate hazing incidents that involved human feces/urine, etc. No one should have to go through THAT amount of crap to build team solidarity, but calling what happened here hazing is only going to make more people roll their eyes at any hazing problem NCAA sports might have.
Posted By : Anonymous
Sports Business Daily had a blurb in their closing...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 19:09:00
Sports Business Daily had a blurb in their closing bell today (5/18) about former FCC honcho Powell gunning for the job as well. Have you heard anything about this or is it just rumor? And, honestly, is there a chance that someone with no NFL experience could walk into the job?
Posted By : robin
Anonymous - none of this is hazing? They're makin...
Message posted on : 2006-05-18 - 21:21:00
Anonymous - none of this is hazing? They're making it a big deal because it's sports? Of course it happens on college campuses. But it doesn't make it acceptable.
The freshmen were made to perform lapdances for members of the men's team. Is that not hazing? My own school had an incident a couple of years ago where girls rushing a sorority were made to do something similar - I think that if it was more publicized, much more would have been made of the incident then a slap on the wrist.
Likewise, I've been told that members of the Stanford women's swim team are subjected to very similar treatment by their seniors - lapdances, naked runs, etc. People online can laugh about it, but at the root of it is a humiliating and inappropriate act of hazing. It's so humiliating that a lot of the people subjected to the act stay silent about it.
The problem with incidents like this is that people don't think it's hazing. That's it part of growing up or some crap like that. Read the rules and definitions of hazing. This was hazing. Forcing someone to something demeaning against their will . . . that's hazing. Look at the pictures. I don't see any of the freshmen laughing by the time they're being forced to perform lapdances and drink beer after doing situps.
Posted By : Satchmo
So, how do we know they were forced again?
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 00:12:00
So, how do we know they were forced again?
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous - you would do that of your own free wil...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 01:13:00
Anonymous - you would do that of your own free will? perhaps you would, and perhaps they did as well. But nevertheless, they were put into a situation that was embarassing, and with the group and their team elders present, there was undoubtedly a large pressure to adhere to the demands of the group, to the extent that "free will" is a very touchy subject in the situation. They may have chosen to participate, but there is at least a large degree of coercion.
I'm not even sure consent needs to be discussed here - isn't this hazing whether or not consent was given?
Posted By : Satchmo
It is one thing to do hazing of this nature, and i...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 09:45:00
It is one thing to do hazing of this nature, and i realize there is tradition involved, however the bigger issue is the pictures that made it online.
Posted By : tommie
Excellent post, Rick. (And a great photo too!) T...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 11:34:00
Excellent post, Rick. (And a great photo too!) The possibility of internships or residency programs is an important one to discuss, since there is a lot of dissatisfaction out there about law school education. Every time I post about it on my blog (law career blog) my traffic goes through the roof. So people definitely want to talk about this.
Posted By : Gregory W. Bowman
Am I the only person who finds this NU "scandal" s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 12:54:00
Am I the only person who finds this NU "scandal" simply an opportunity for the fun police to say "tsk-tsk" once again?
It's especially precious when one of these scolds bleats to the heavens that these girls's lives will be "ruined" because of publicity the photos have engendered, apparently unaware they've contributed to this process with their own paternalism.
Posted By : Brian Moore
tommie,
speaking again as a Northwestern ex...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 13:34:00
tommie,
speaking again as a Northwestern ex-athlete myself... there is no tradition involved here. However, I do agree that the bigger issue is the fact that the pictures made it online, not that the incident happened.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
In the medical profession, the residency programs ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 13:48:00
In the medical profession, the residency programs are to allow doctors to specialize. They choose one specialty over other specialties that they know that they will never go back to. At the end of their residency, they pass rigorous examination in their specific area of concentration. They then begin to practice in that area. Until that time, they're paid for shit.
If you want the legal model to follow the medical model, you have to at least acknowledge that it is specifically designed to limit flexibility. In a profession which, by tradition and design, allows much more flexibility, it seems that the introduction of a residency system will do little more that allow law firms to scale back their pay.
Here's another thing --- most legal academic writing in this country is chosen, edited, and published by students. These are mostly third year students. Now, there's probably a lot of reasons why this is not an ideal system, but there's also a lot of reasons why its a pretty effective one. Removing third-year students from the equation will have a serious effect on the academy as well as on the more practical parts of the profession.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Geoffrey,
Your the lawyer here, so doesn't ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 15:17:00
Geoffrey,
Your the lawyer here, so doesn't stopping the players from posting their prior restraint or otherwise an unlawful restriction of their First Amendment rights?
Posted By : Pinski
One potential Moonlight Graham (in a different sen...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 15:26:00
One potential Moonlight Graham (in a different sense) is the Cubs' Adam Greenberg, who was a call-up in the 2005 season and in his first career at-bat got hit in the head with a pitch, sending him to the DL. As of now he's never gotten called back up, despite the dubious distrinction if that remains I hope instead that he gets another chance :)
http://baseball-reference.com/g/greenad01.shtml
Posted By : Anonymous
pinski,
I don't think a private University ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 15:44:00
pinski,
I don't think a private University like Northwestern has to worry about prior restraint issues in this case. I think their position becomes stronger if they place the restraints on those to whom they offer scholarships.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Note also that New Hampshire and its only law scho...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 16:37:00
Note also that New Hampshire and its only law school (and my alma mater) Franklin Pierce have implemented an alternative to the bar exam that includes extensive apprenticeship. Details here. Time will tell if employers buy into it.
I spent one semester of my third yeard as a full-time intern, and would gladly have put in a full year if that was an option.
Posted By : Matthew Saunders
Collin,
When you mention it would do littl...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 17:19:00
Collin,
When you mention it would do little more than allow law firms to scale back their pay, keep in mind that there would also be a huge offset in the amount of student loan debt if students are actually getting paid to work instead of paying to go to school.
Your point about law review is a good one. But my response to that is that if a legal residency program is in fact more beneficial to training and preparing future lawyers of America, then the academy would need to find a way to adjust somehow and implement another model for publication.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Rick,
What I meant was that the only...
Message posted on : 2006-05-19 - 18:16:00
Rick,
What I meant was that the only effect would be that law firms dial down their pay. That is to say, there would be no positive reasons for doing it that I could see. The medical profession has very justifiable reasons for implementing its system. Those reasons are lacking in the legal profession. This lack of concern is evident in the lack of any post-bar examinations for specialties. While I agree that there's going to be a bit less debt, I can't really take that argument as serious when there are so much more productive ways to ameliorate student debt (loan forgiveness, anyone?). Moreover, the students who are going into the big firms are not too worried about debt repayment -- but they might be if the firms dial back their pay.
Look, all law firms are doing is complaining about the quality of the students they themselves hire. Since this is a sports law blog, I'll use a sports analogy: what do we say about the general manager of a team who complains all the time about the quality of the draft picks he keeps making? We say, make better goddam draft picks, Isiah McHale! Large law firms -- the ones complaining -- have a vested interest in specific types of students that they use as banners of their firm's attractiveness: law review, order of the coif, publications, alma mater, whatever. They complain about these students, but they will not change their recruitment policies. Not only that, they refuse to give them substantive work to do until they've proven themselves by... doing substantive work. And Larry Brown wouldn't play Darko, so folks called Darko a bust. Cry me a freakin' river! Are DA's offices complaining? Are federal judges? Charitable organizations? Any of the other people that hire freshly minted lawyers? Everyone who complains in the article you link to is in a law firm, mostly large ones. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this is a failure of the law school system when everything I see points to other factors -- namely, stupid decisions by hiring partners.
There's a lot, a lot of ways to make third year valuable, but dispensing with it altogether is not one of them.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
While the "opportunity" is availab...
Message posted on : 2006-05-20 - 08:38:00
Michael,
While the "opportunity" is available to go back to school after playing in the minors under the MLB scholarship plan (and I took full advantage of it myself), the fact of the matter is that a large number of ex-minor leaguers, for a variety of reasons, do not. Some have families at this point in their lives, making it extremely difficult to go to school and provide for their families at the same time. For this reason, during contract negotiations, teams bend over backwards to try to allocate as much of the signing bonus as they can into the college scholarship because of the likelihood that the player will not even use the money (a player must begin using the scholarship money within 2 years after leaving baseball and unused amounts allocated to scholarships revert back to the club).
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Anonymous,
Thanks for mentioning Adam Green...
Message posted on : 2006-05-20 - 18:03:00
Anonymous,
Thanks for mentioning Adam Greenberg. Let's hope he gets back to the big leagues. To be beaned in the head in one's only big league plate appearance almost assures becoming the answer to a trivia question!
Rick,
That is a good point about timing and when it is practical for one to go back to college. That you did so after 4 years of pro baseball (so I assume you were around 22) was--I'm guessing--more feasible than if you had been 26 or 27 or older with other life commitments. Having said that, I wonder if the growth and greater acceptance of on-line universities (e.g., University of Phoenix) might make these clauses more viable for players?
Posted By : Michael McCann
Wow, that's really the dumbest math I've seen in a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-20 - 18:27:00
Wow, that's really the dumbest math I've seen in a while. Of course the _absolute_ numbers of women players with women coaches has increased. But the general likelihood, or percentage, of women coaches in relation to men has DECLINED since Title IX, and the report you referenced gives good supporting documentation for why that is. Basically, as the women's coaching jobs became more stable and attractive (post-Title IX), more men became interested. And men continue to be preferred to women in today's job markets, unfortunately. It's messed up.
Your blog seems pretty good. Please don't minimize the importance of basic equality in sports....it's a goal that benefits everyone....
Susana Gallardo
http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/gallardo/
Posted By : Anonymous
Is there a horses union? - M. Clarett
Message posted on : 2006-05-20 - 22:22:00
Is there a horses union? - M. Clarett
Posted By : Anonymous
Of all the horses in the race, Barbaro was the one...
Message posted on : 2006-05-20 - 22:23:00
Of all the horses in the race, Barbaro was the one least likely to be considered abused. He may not have been used to running on two weeks rest, but that's different than abused. He had only run a total of six races in his career, less than any other horse in the race save the winner. Matz's training methods are the most hmane in the business - be careful where you throw around suspicions.
Posted By : mark
My husband was very upset my ex-husband bought my ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 00:05:00
My husband was very upset my ex-husband bought my son a paintball gun some years ago. He kept saying that the guns are way to powerful for children to play with. He is also upset with the makers of the "guns" that they call "markers". He kept telling me that the makers of the "guns" use the word "marker" to mask the fact that the area very powerful "guns".
I did not listen. My son has excelled in the sport and has had lots of fun. I am a 37 year old mother who loves to play paintball with my son. Am I am not to bad too bad at it either.
I FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY -SHOULD HAVE HEARD WHAT MY HUSBAND WAS TRYING TO TELL ME....
I went with my son to a friends house to play in an open field.I did not play that day, went to watch my son. I was in a "safe area "and had no eye protection. I almost lost my eye. A younger child was playing, he was hot and tired. He sat down and did not put his "barrell cover" on. The gun went off and now I have permanant eye damage.
Posted By : Anonymous
A human athlete might be "allowed" time off, but w...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 01:34:00
A human athlete might be "allowed" time off, but what human athlete would sit out a race when they have a chance at the Triple Crown?
Posted By : Adam
Humans find it hard to assert their Human Rights w...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 06:06:00
Humans find it hard to assert their Human Rights when it comes to sport. Animals have a lot of ground to cover.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
How about the fact that while lots of horses would...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 08:49:00
How about the fact that while lots of horses would be dead now after Barbaro's injury, he will be cared for amazingly and live out his days in stud since he's still enormously valuable for his bloodline. I wish I could be abused like that. One injury and I get to retire to a life of luxury.
Posted By : Taco John
I think interning is the best thing for a law stud...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 11:43:00
I think interning is the best thing for a law student. It is far and away better than any class you could ever take. A good internship, and even a decent one is worth a lot more than excellent grades, it is like adding a semester full of As to the report card. They are that valuable. Of the two internships I have had, there is no class in law school that could have prepared me for a job in both of those fields. I might have had minor preparation with the basics of thinking and analyzing issues and preparation for handling a full work load, however nothing specific.
Internships are the most important thing for students and employers. It allows employers to see if those students who are at the top of their class really may live up to their potential and it allows them to see if other students who are not at the top of their class can out perform students who are at the top, which frequently happens.
Posted By : tommie
I'm not sure about the impact of on-line universit...
Message posted on : 2006-05-21 - 19:28:00
I'm not sure about the impact of on-line universities. I went to school in the off-seasons when I could (i.e when not involved in instructional league). I was 23 when I left baseball, but I was a lot more mature at that age than when I was in my teens, so I was really ready for college at that time. It's much easier to focus on academics when you know you're done playing and you don't have that as a distraction.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
So now horses can sue? People -- it's a HORSE.
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 10:09:00
So now horses can sue? People -- it's a HORSE.
This is why people hate lawyers.
Posted By : john
How is it decided that something is "part of the g...
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 12:40:00
How is it decided that something is "part of the game"? Does it have to be stated in the rules as illegal to be considered not part of the game? Does there have to be consensus on the players on what is part of the game? Violence in hockey is part of the game, but when McSorly hit Brashear over the head with his stick, knocking him unconscious he was convicted of assualt...in Canadian court.
Posted By : Pete
ATLA, forever....
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 13:07:00
ATLA, forever....
Posted By : Anonymous
On a "feel good" note, I think alot of credit is d...
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 13:23:00
On a "feel good" note, I think alot of credit is due Mr. Gettis. Since the age of 18 he has made a paycheck, including a couple of very big ones in his short stint in the Bigs.
By enrolling in school, he'll find new strengths and discover other means, and that couldn't have been an easy decision. Sure, part of his motivation is playing football, but taking advantage of the scholarship in his contract--an option often not taken by others--is not just a smart move, but a ballsy one.
Posted By : John M. Powers
I know how they feel. - M. Clarett
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 13:32:00
I know how they feel. - M. Clarett
Posted By : Anonymous
A lot of these horses are treated better than peop...
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 14:01:00
A lot of these horses are treated better than people. They're "worth" more too. I doubt Barbaro was abused, and I don't think running a race two weeks later is abusive - however, I think there should be more time in between the races.
I once read someone's suggestion of ditching the Preakness as the second leg of the triple crown, make Belmont the second and the Travers (in August) the third. It'll never happen, but I thought the timing was better. The time will let horse racing get some possible extended coverage in the news as well as giving everyone involved (including the horses) more breathing time.
I don't think the equivalent human race is a marathon. The Derby a spint race.
Posted By : David
Bicycles are associated with more childhood injuri...
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 16:44:00
Bicycles are associated with more childhood injuries than any other consumer product. In 2002, 130 children ages 14 and under DIED in bicycle-related crashes. Every year, more than a quarter MILLION children ages 14 and under are treated in hospital emergency rooms for bicycle-related injuries! I haven't heard of a single death resulting from BB guns. The injury rate from bicycles is more than 10 times as high as that from bikes. Isn't it time we BAN BICYCLES?
Right about now you're thinking I'm freaking nuts (and you may be right). However, I'm joking about bikes in order to show just how stupid an argument you folks have made about BB guns. A BB gun is a toy, and like many toys, can be harmful if you put it in the hands of a stupid, unsupervised child. Go ahead and give your malicious little prick a Louisville Slugger, and just see what damage he can do!
More children die or are hurt playing baseball, football, basketball, swimming, and just about any other activity you can name than from BB guns. I have an idea... let's just ban FUN. We can all dress our kids up in safety orange, padded kevlar outfits covered in reflectors, and then keep them locked in a closet lest they hurt themselves or others.
We need to start punishing stupidity instead of padding the world against its effects. A parent who hands a kid a BB gun, and then lets him/her run around unsupervised with it should be liable for any harm that results. Instead, we the public are made to pay for the idiocy of the few irresponsible pricks who let their kids run amok. Laws made to save stupid people from themselves are ridiculous, not that Tom Reilly cares. He's a big fan of seatbelt laws, helmet laws, fireworks bans, and a plethora of other safeguards against morons getting hurt. Elect him governor, and we'll all be wearing helmets in the car.
Posted By : Anonymous
Pete,
"Part of the game" essentially means ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-22 - 16:53:00
Pete,
"Part of the game" essentially means that it is not totally unexpectable. So in other words the plaintiff assumes the risk of a certain level of expected rough play in sporting contests. And whether the particular conduct is a rule violation is not outcome determinative. For example, late hits in football are illegal, but under most circumstances late hits are not unexpectable in football, and are therefore part of the game. The assault charge you mentioned is a criminal charge (but the concept is analogous there too) -- Canadian prosecutors have traditionally brought more criminal charges against hockey players than American courts have. If a case goes to trial, the testimony of players would be relevant.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Excellent post, and it brings back some memories a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 11:03:00
Excellent post, and it brings back some memories as well: Sox fans took Duquette to the woodshed when he couldn't sign Teix, but Teix saying Duquette/Sox broke laws is crazy. I don't know why he is still upset about it 8 years later.
Posted By : Steve Botts
I'm slightly confused by the timeline that Tex pre...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 11:26:00
I'm slightly confused by the timeline that Tex presents
According to him, it went
Predraft:
Sox offer 1.5 million to him, as a take or leave it offer.
He declines, and enters the draft, dropping in draft status because of perceived signability issues.
Draft:
The Sox use a 9th round pick on him and offer the same 1.5 million. What happened to take it or leave it?
Also, in the interview, he mentions that he realized on draft day that he wanted to go to college. Was this really the case? Did he have no commitment to Georgia Tech before the draft? (Incidentall, Georgia Tech and Georgia State are very different entities)
Posted By : Satchmo
Steve,
I agree, it is peculiar that Teixeir...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 12:11:00
Steve,
I agree, it is peculiar that Teixeira still perceives an ax to grind after all these years (and after all the millions he has earned). It seems like he is doing extremely well in his professional life, and to continue to harbor this bitterness is strange and probably counter-productive (unless it has motivated him to do so well professionally).
Will,
Great point about the timeline. I wonder if Teixeira might simply be recollecting the facts wrong, purposefully or not, from a sequence of events nearly a decade old?
In terms of his comments about wanting to go to college the whole time, if they are true, then why did he hire Scott Boras to represent him, and why was he fixated on the signing bonus amount? He seems to want to have it both ways: it wasn't about the money, because he really cared about a college education, but it actually was about the money—it was all about the money!
Posted By : Michael McCann
I read your book "Republic.com", which I found to ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 12:36:00
I read your book "Republic.com", which I found to have interesting ideas. I do not agree, however, with the inference of your blog post that Barbaro's injury resulted from too little time off between races and that such minimal time off is abusive.
First to outline the parameters of the debate. If you take the position that humans racing horses for sport is inherently "abusive" (i.e. cruel, or not of their own choice and therefore violative of the horse's rights), then the whole discussion has ended before it has begun. PETA takes this position. "[O]ver the phone, Jackie Vergerio was saying, 'Definitely, without a doubt, we would love nothing more than to see a ban on horse racing. The industry is just rife with problems. It is fraught with cruelty.' Vergerio is the Animals in Entertainment specialist for PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)." http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14646774.htm
I include a quote from PETA in contrast to an unspoken premise of your position: the horses given more time off were not abused. Given that you did not appear to question the existence of the racing industry, the baseline for the discussion does not change: What is abusive treatment?
Perhaps you could have been more selective in your word choice. "Abuse" means "improper or excessive use or treatment" or "physical maltreatment".
To determine excessiveness, one first has to know what is not excessive. How often do horses die at races?
"[N]ationally, between 1.6 and 2.2 horses suffer a catastrophic breakdown for every 1,000 horses that run in a race. At Penn National over the last 10 years, he said, there have been 262 catastrophic breakdowns, an average of 1.8 per every 1,000 starters. By definition...a catastrophic breakdown is a limb fracture that results in a horse being destroyed within 24 hours of the race in which it occurred. Whatever happens from here, Barbaro would not fall into that category. But, consider: Twenty-six horses a year suffer that fate at Penn National, one for every eight racing days over the last 10 years. Multiply that by how many tracks in this country, operating on how many days?"
Of course, the aforementioned statistics do not address the discrete question here as to whether Barbaro had enough time off, but a safe assumption can be made that of the catastrophic breakdowns listed in the statistics, some fraction, large or small, reflect the common cause of minimal time off from races.
Moreover, anecdotally many horses have run the Triple Crown without breaking down. If you shift the debate to the greater question of abuse in racing, or the abusiveness of racing, those are different questions. If you confine the discussion to the one you posed, time between races and the chance of injury therefrom, history renders your inferences irresponsible and misplaced.
By definition and inference, abuse is external. (Abusing oneself already has another word: self-abuse.) Your blog suggests that human athletes are "permitted" time off after a marathon, implying that both humans and horses submit to some outside authority for their time off.
The fact is that horses race each other in the wild, and predators don't stick to a racing schedule. And even human athletes require external encouragement and training. (Even human professors require some external pressure from time to time.)
I am no horse racing expert. I have read non-fiction accounts of the horse racing industry. Without a doubt the animals could be treated better industry-wide. If you hope to improve the lot of all horses, your focus on a famous, well-bred, pampered thoroughbred is misguided. At the highest level, owners expend too much money to push their investment to the edge of ruin. They hire the best trainers with the best training methods and the best doctors. Sometimes, in an inherently dangerous sport, things go wrong.
I realize that law professors use the Socratic method to spark debate, even to describe
the parameters of the debate. In that sense you have been successful. Still, I disagree with your suggestion, bordering on libelous, that the owners of Barbaro in any way "abused" him. The only way you could make such an argument is if you condemn the very idea of horse racing, which you did not. To suggest that the owners of Barbaro did anything excessive or anything resembling maltreatment is without merit, and you should apologize for the suggestion before their lawyers get hold of your blog. This isn't a law classroom, and your criticism of their professional practices could easily be considered tortious.
Posted By : J-Dub
Tex is a rambling wreck.
Let's brush up on ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 13:32:00
Tex is a rambling wreck.
Let's brush up on the ole due diligence.
Posted By : Anonymous
Folks:
When Teixeira said it was "illegal", he ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 15:33:00
Folks:
When Teixeira said it was "illegal", he meant MLB rules. It's against draft rules for any team (other than the one picking first) to engage in any pre-draft negotiations, make offers, etc. It happens all the time, of course, but that's what he was referring to. Just wanted to clear that up.
Posted By : Alan Schwarz
Alan, thanks for the clarification, and great inte...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 15:53:00
Alan, thanks for the clarification, and great interview.
Posted By : Michael McCann
if you had researched barbaro before the comment y...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 18:44:00
if you had researched barbaro before the comment you would know that horses of this caliber race and win because they love it. they love the cheering of the crowd, the acceptance from the jockey, and most of all the feeling of being in front of all the horses. if you want to compare humans to horses, then know that horses are very emotional animals and love to win as much as we do. their confidence gets hurt just as ours does when we dont win.Abused horses dont win and are not happy for the same reasons abused people are not happy.
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
First, Teix is basically speaking ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 19:22:00
Michael,
First, Teix is basically speaking the "Boras line" -- he's like a puppet. With Boras and his clients, it is all about the money. Boras feels generally that college is the better route and he also refuses to engage in pre-draft negotiations. So when Teix is saying that the Red Sox offered him $1.5M illegally out of high school, Boras was not engaged in a "negotiation" with the team on behalf of Teix (i.e. Teix did not tell anybody what it would take to sign him). Boras feels that he has the strongest negotiation power after the team has drafted his client -- and he's right because the team is more likely to give the player more money so that they don't end up losing their top draft pick if he goes unsigned. Some teams (and it becomes fewer and fewer with each draft) are willing to play the Boras game and take their chances signing a Boras client.
Secondly, the reason nobody signed Teix out of high school is because it simply wasn't worth the money at the time (i.e. word will travel fast that it's going to take more than $1.5M to sign him). See, I believe that there is a market value for every player, and his market value out of high school was apparently $1.5M.
Finally, pre-draft negotiation can actually be a very beneficial process to both sides because (1) it brings certainty to the club, (2) the player is assured to be picked high in the draft for a decent signing bonus that is acceptable to the player and club, and (3) the player is able to sign right away and start his pro career instead of missing his first season as many Boras clients do.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
The Court takes yet another bite out of the Fourth...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 20:00:00
The Court takes yet another bite out of the Fourth Amendment.
Posted By : Anonymous
Rick,
Thanks for your remarks. I agree with...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 20:05:00
Rick,
Thanks for your remarks. I agree with you on the benefits of pre-draft negotiations; the downside of those discussions seems minimal as a matter of norm (although I can see the reasoning behind regulating them). Your comments on Boras are interesting. Teixeira expressly states that there were pre-draft discussions between the Sox and either him or Boras. Considering some of the glaring inconsistencies in his account, you may be right.
As to determining a market for a player, be it an amateur or a pro, I'm not sure how rational the market is (depending on how we define "rationality"). Obviously, the market for any available player is heavily affected by whether the big market teams are interested in that player (i.e., if the Yankees had coveted Teixeira in the draft, he probably wouldn't have attended Georgia Tech, but had the Royals or Brewers felt that way, it probably would have made no difference). But teams also seem to be heavily affected by cognitive biases and heuristics when considering which players to sign and how much to offer (optimism bias is the most apparent bias). Perhaps they are also affected by the "situation" in ways that they fail appreciate at the time--such as when the Red Sox and Yankees enter into frenzied, bidding wars over players. It's hard to measure whether their “wars� reflect a rational allocation of resources or, to borrow a phrase from Alan Greenspan, "irrational exuberance."
Posted By : Michael McCann
Rick-
This is kind unrelated to the direction o...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 20:34:00
Rick-
This is kind unrelated to the direction of the conversation, but I was wondering what, in your opinion, is the best way to build a sports lawyer? I am in the process of applying to trasfer as a 2L to a school that offers a specializaton in Intellectual Property because I'm hoping it will give me a greater chance of being able to practice in this area. My current school only offers one class in sports law, but I will be giving up a 40,000 dollar scolarship if I transfer. This post seems to indicate that more importance is being placed on practical experience rather than law school curriculum though, so in your opinion would I be better served by concentrating on finding an internship in this area rather than worring about the classes I take during law school?
Sharon
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
Good point. When I say there's a ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 22:40:00
Michael,
Good point. When I say there's a market value, I mean that there is a certain price that "a" team is willing to pay for a particular player (not a price that "all" teams would be willing to pay).
But it's interesting your take on Teixeira's comment about whether they actually engaged in pre-draft negotiations. If you are referring to his statement, "we didn't want to cap our negotiation before the draft even happened", I take that to mean that he and Boras were not willing to negotiate a figure with the Sox. I take that to mean that the Sox were trying to get Teix to agree with them on a number, and he wouldn't go there. Teams are always trying to figure out what it will take to sign a Boras client, but he will never agree with a team before the draft (i.e. a "pre-draft deal" which is common in the industry). That's why many teams are not willing to draft Boras clients because it's too risky.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Rick,
Great points. I was referring to Tei...
Message posted on : 2006-05-23 - 23:06:00
Rick,
Great points. I was referring to Teixeira's remark that before the draft the Red Sox indicated to him, in his words, "We haven't drafted you yet, we may or may not draft you, but if you don't take 1.5 we're not going to draft you." So I agree that if we take Teixeira at his word, there didn't appear to be much, if any, negotiating room from the vantage point of the Red Sox.
But I wonder what Dan Duquette would say about that--I have a feeling the Sox weren't nearly as unbending as Teixeira posits, but I could be wrong.
Maybe Dan Duquette reads this blog and will comment!
Posted By : Michael McCann
Perhaps colleges and high school's don't have this...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 08:45:00
Perhaps colleges and high school's don't have this rule because state institutions telling an athlete what number to wear might result in free speech challenges.
Posted By : Taco John
Sounds to me like Tex tried his best to retain hi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 09:38:00
Sounds to me like Tex tried his best to retain his bargaining leverage despite the highly orchestrated slotting tactics MLB has tried to impose on the draft in recent years. Good for him.
Posted By : C. Dahl
Actually, there IS such a rule; but it is not as r...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 10:11:00
Actually, there IS such a rule; but it is not as restrictive. The last I remember, the only restrictions are that offensive linemen must wear numbers between 50 and 79--this is to help referees determine who are ineligible receivers.
Second, the NFL rule was even more limiting when it came out in the early 1970's:
1-19: Quarterbacks and specialists (kickers and punters).
20-49: Running backs and defensive backs.
50-59: Centers and linebackers.
60-69: Offensive guards.***
70-79: Offensive tackles.***
80-89: Tight ends and wide receivers.
90-99: Only used during pre-season.
*** I think interior defensive linemen were 60-69 and defensive ends/tackles were 70-79.
AND, any player who wore an out-of-position number in the year prior to this rule change could keep the number (i.e. DE Jack Youngblood of the Rams wore #85; WR Charlie Joiner of the Chargers wore #18, as examples).
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
Some points.....
1. The only way to end catastr...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 10:46:00
Some points.....
1. The only way to end catastrophic injuries is to stop racing horses whose bones are not finished growing.
2. Alternatively, racing should institute more proactive ways of diagnosing warning signs of impending injury. For example, the sport of Three-Day Eventing requires each horse to be thoroughly examined by a veterinarian at least three times during the competition. If a health problem is found, the horse is eliminated from competition. In this day of technological advancement, the horse racing industry should implement mandatory xrays and/or ultrasound exams prior to every major stakes race. If a horse has a hairline fracture, or anything else that indicates a weakness in bone/ligiment/tendon, then they are not permitted to run. That would prevent many catastrophic injuries.
3. There has been alot of press about Barbaro racing with so much "time off". This is a misunderstanding of race horse training protocol. No race horse has "time off" in the traditional sense. A race horse is trained/exercised/ridden daily. The reference to "time off" only means that Barbaro was not actively racing, even though he was still running in his training sessions. From a training perspective, that is good. The horse is kept fit and strong through daily workouts, but is not stressed excessivley by overracing. And 3 races in 4 weeks is not too much. Each triple crown trainer has a training program designed to ensure the horse peaks at the appropriate time to be fit and healthy for the entire period.
4. Is any horse that is ridden or put to work abused? Do humans have a duty to protect the health of the animals they use for sport/work?
Posted By : Anonymous
John,
I agree with you, Gettis deserves a t...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 13:05:00
John,
I agree with you, Gettis deserves a tremendous amount of credit in his decision to return to school. And as Rick notes above, going to college as a 26-year-old may be difficult for many persons.
On a separate note, I'm wondering what it was like to play pro baseball after college and during law school, as you did? That is also a very admirable and challenging pursuit--law school is hard enough without a job! It's great that you were able to pull it off.
Note: Attorney John Powers' bio is available here -- he played in the Padres, Cubs, and Rangers organizations --
http://thehendersonlawfirm.com/BioDetails.aspx?id=3
Posted By : Michael McCann
I'd view the use of the numbers by the players as ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 14:09:00
I'd view the use of the numbers by the players as a transferable license from the team. Presumably the team has no interest in restricting transferability by "team consent" or otherwise, unless the team has invested substantial money in marketing a player and then he wants to switch numbers after the team has built equity through its marketing efforts.
My first thought when I saw the post was "Is this governed by Article 2 of the UCC?" In some ways it seems ridiculous to think it would be, and if it is a license, it isn't within Article 2.
However, arguably the player is really selling the uniform itself with the number on it. I don't think the player is selling any other use of the number, since the team retains all the marketing rights associated with the number. So maybe the player is really selling all his jerseys with that number on it?
Would it matter if it is governed by the UCC? Maybe not, although there is the pesky Statute of Frauds requirements for contracts of more than $500. In the Ohalete/Portis case, that would be a non-issue, since they essentially admitted there is a contract.
But what if Portis never paid a dime and then never acknowledged that he made the deal (assuming there is no writing)? Statute of Frauds defense?
Will we one day see a 2-207 battle of the forms over jersey numbers, where Portis submits his "standard" number purchase form and Ohalete sends his standard number sale form, each of which is signed but has differing terms or inconsistent terms? Are they merchants?
I don't really think Article 2 applies, but I'm starting to wish it did. :)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2006/04/nospace-is-...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 15:08:00
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2006/04/nospace-is-myspace-inappropriate-for.html
Check my post on the appropriateness of myspace and similar sites for athlete postings and first amendment issues associated with it.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Hitting Che Che outside Fenway is a must for a sau...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 15:14:00
Hitting Che Che outside Fenway is a must for a sausage before the game. His post, last I checked, was on Yawkey Way.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
To add to the outstanding comments above, I have a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 15:17:00
To add to the outstanding comments above, I have a question: Are we sure that a player or his team or even his league actually "owns" his number, or his number part of the public domain?
I ask that because I remember playing the first John Madden Football videogame back in 1992, and the game was not licensed by either the NFL or NFLPA. The game did not contain team names/team images/player names/actual stadiums, but did contain player numbers--so, for instance, you had #80 receiving for San Francisco (but not Jerry Rice receiving for the San Francisco 49ers).
So are player numbers then simply part of the public domain?
Posted By : Michael McCann
Taco John, I'm not a constitutional expert by any ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 17:35:00
Taco John, I'm not a constitutional expert by any means, but my gut tells me that there would be no first amendment violation if colleges and high schools implemented such a rule.
Chapel Heel, good stuff.
Michael, I would view the use of jersey numbers in a video game as involving a different situation (a misappropriation issue depending upon the circumstances). While a number in and of itself is part of the public domain, I would say that teams have the exclusive right to issue jersey numbers to players, and that the player (unless agreed otherwise with the club) obtains the exclusive right to use that number for only so long as the team permits him to use it. Thus, when Player 1 assigns his number to Player 2, Player 1 is assigning to Player 2 the right granted to him from his team to use that number for as long as Player 1 has the right to use that number. The team effectively consents to the assignment when it re-issues the number to Player 2.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
So what are they going to do? Get bracelets with "...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 20:46:00
So what are they going to do? Get bracelets with "Presumably innocent" on them?
Posted By : Anonymous
Isn't the Women's lacrosse team just presuming the...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 21:05:00
Isn't the Women's lacrosse team just presuming they are innocent?
Posted By : Adam
Well, "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" would send a ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 21:07:00
Well, "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" would send a message that is much better than just "Innocent." Just that one word delivers the message that the women's team blindingly believes that the men were in fact innocent, a message which I think is extremely irresponsible.
This was apparently not condoned by the school, so I assume a student or a coach came up with the idea and didn't inform the administration.
But the solidarity that the women's team is expressing is disturbing to me because it is so driven by a misinformed sense of the athlete's code and team loyalty, which also informed the code of silence kept by the men's team in the initial stages of the investigation.
At what point does one's obligation as a member of the community override one's obligation's to the team or the organization? Isn't there some kind of NCAA code of ethics that is being blatantly ignored here?
Posted By : Satchmo
I think the author is confusing the issue here bec...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 23:29:00
I think the author is confusing the issue here because any person is allowed to have an opinion on whether another is guilty or innocent regardless of how much information is available to them. However, it is irresponsible to have the opinion that the lacross players are innocent, regardless of what information is available, when one sits in judgment of the players (i.e. is a member of the jury). By the logic of the author it would be irresponsible for friends of the alleged victim to state their belief that the lacrosse players are guilty because they don't have all of the information. But, I suspect the author would not support that view.
I would also remind the author, for what it is worth, that the season was cancelled before any arrests were made by the police.
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
Fan's Attic,
You've offered a straw man's ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-24 - 23:51:00
Fan's Attic,
You've offered a straw man's argument and successfully debunked it. Congrats. Of course they are allowed to have an opinion. The issues are how the opinion is formed, why it is formed, how one expresses it, and why one expresses it in the selected manner.
Will,
Excellent points. The code of loyalty that captures students goes to the power of the situation in college sports and sports in general. You're points about community obligations and NCCA ethical rules are also well-stated.
Adam,
I see your point, but it's unclear what they are presuming. They seem to be speaking in generalities about their reasoning.
Anonymous,
Although perhaps a tad verbose, "presumed innocent" bracelets would, for reasons that Will (Satchmo) also notes above, seem far more appropriate.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I really don't see why it is irresponsible for fri...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 09:27:00
I really don't see why it is irresponsible for friends of the accused to believe (based on what they know of the accused) that they are innocent. Is it irresponsible for the accused families to maintain the innocence of the accused? So, a mom can't say "my son is innocent." She has to say, "my son is presumed innocent." That is ridiculous.
They are basing their opinion on what they know of the defendants, people they presumably know well. I don't have a problem with them forming an opinion on that basis. If I had a friend who was accused of a crime that was not consistent with what I knew about the person, I would presume he was innocent. Meaning, I would consider him innocent until proved differently.
I actually applaud the lacrosse women for standing up for their friends. Not an easy thing to do, because they had to know they would get shots like this from commentators.
Posted By : john
I guess, "We're glad we weren't invited to the Par...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 09:30:00
I guess, "We're glad we weren't invited to the Party" would be a bit hard to print up.
Posted By : Michael
Maybe it's that no one ELSE is on steroids this ye...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 11:03:00
Maybe it's that no one ELSE is on steroids this year? I'll be at the Yankees-Tigers game at Comerica Park on Monday afternoon and will investigate.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Is Jim Leyland this good at managing and/or was Al...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 11:16:00
Is Jim Leyland this good at managing and/or was Alan Trammell that bad? It's always hard to measure managing/coaching, especially when there are changes in player personnel (and changes in quality of competition etc.), but from the outside looking in, it seems like Leyland has made a difference.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I don't think they'd have to bargain with the unio...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 11:21:00
I don't think they'd have to bargain with the union.
They'd just have to appeal any decisions to the 2nd Circuit, thanks to Brown v. Pro Football and Clarett Cases.
George
Posted By : Anonymous
How much do these books go far?
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 11:51:00
How much do these books go far?
Posted By : Anonymous
great...
there can be differnt positions...
...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 12:17:00
great...
there can be differnt positions...
how can players get so messed up? why? well I hope there can be more people that come to play, not by help (drugs), but because it's their choice...
Posted By : none
I though you might be interested in this: I built ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 12:17:00
I though you might be interested in this: I built a lenspage on squidoo with updtates on the Italian soccer scandal, background info, rss feeds etc. It's here:
http://www.squidoo.com/italiansoccer
Posted By : WM1
I think John has this one right. I dont see at all...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 13:41:00
I think John has this one right. I dont see at all how it is irresponsible of friends to state a belief that a party is innocent based on their knowledge of the person's character, etc.
Your assumption appears to be that they know no more than we do about the individuals. Im not sure why this is an appropriate assumption. Of course, we do not know because, as you point out, they "seem to be speaking in generalities about their reasoning." But isn't this what friends do? Since when do friends of the accused have to "state their reasoning" to the press about their beliefs of innocence? They are not writing a law review article.
Posted By : Joshua Wright
John & Joshua:
I am assuming that they ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 13:47:00
John & Joshua:
I am assuming that they know as much as we do. I have not seen or heard any facts suggesting otherwise. Until we hear otherwise, I believe it would be inappropriate and speculative to assume otherwise.
As to how friends respond, sure, friends get defensive and friends are loyal. But I guess if one of my friends was charged with raping a woman, and if I was not with him that night, I wouldn't run around with a t-shirt saying "innocent." To me at least, doing so seems tacky at best and foolhardy at worst.
And no, this isn't about writing a law review article; it's about using common sense and showing decency towards a victim of sexual violence. Moreover, and as Will notes above, these women, whether they like it or not, represent their university and the NCAA, and everything they do on the field is a reflection of those associations. Running around like propaganda drones just doesn't cast a positive light on anyone.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Don't you mean "alleged" sexual violence? Isn't i...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:02:00
Don't you mean "alleged" sexual violence? Isn't it irresponsible to assume that there was sexual violence without knowing for sure that there was, in fact, sexual violence?
And again, I'm not sure why showing support for a friend, makes you a "propoganda drone." The evidence that they have that we don't is a knowledge of the character of the defendants. Labeling them propoganda drones seems to me unfairly dismissive of what could be a principled and well thought out position by these students. (And of course, it's only "propoganda" because you disagree with it.)
Posted By : john
Completely agree with john and Joshua.
What...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:04:00
Completely agree with john and Joshua.
What do you say McCann? How do you justify your assumption that the women's players are in no better position to judge innocence or guilt than we are?
Not only would they be able to base their position on character assessments, but I think a better assumption than yours is that they know much more about the facts than we do (albeit from onesided accounts, but that's still one more side than we have). Of course, this is not to say they should be making such a statement.
And c'mon, "simpleton loyalists", I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are better than that.
Posted By : Anonymous
Sorry, I started that, left, and came back and did...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:07:00
Sorry, I started that, left, and came back and didn't see that last post.
Posted By : Anonymous
John,
No, it's not propaganda because I and...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:12:00
John,
No, it's not propaganda because I and others disagree with it. It's propaganda because it concerns the expression of pre-judged, uninformed conclusions that are based on biased opinions about the accused and the accuser. It's a classic case of situational capture and why loyalty can bring out the worst in otherwise sensible people. And I would feel the exact same way if players on other teams, while playing Duke, wore bracelets that stated "guilty." I'm just thankful that we don't have mob rule when it comes to our justice system.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I'd like to think that it was Leyland calling out ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:17:00
I'd like to think that it was Leyland calling out his team a few weeks ago and the players actually decided it was time to show up and play.
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
I am somewhat confused by your position Michael. ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:22:00
I am somewhat confused by your position Michael. You say it is premature to assume anything other than that the friends' knowledge is equal to our own and it would be inappropriate and speculative to do otherwise. But you obviously do not find it premature and speculative to label the players "simpleton loyalists" and "propoganda drones"? It seems wholly plausible, if not likely, that these people know more than we do if not alone in terms of character. Leaving aside that possibility, I am surprised that you leap to attacking the players here without any information about the formation of their beliefs.
Would you feel differently about a player's mother who wore a t-shirt that said "innocent"? Or to square the example with "representing the university," how about the player's coach? Counselor? Roommate?
Posted By : Joshua Wright
Joshua,
No, I don't find it premature to la...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 14:36:00
Joshua,
No, I don't find it premature to label them as simpletons, just as I would not find it premature to label players who wear "guilty" bracelets as simpletons. They would all be prejudging the facts, and unlike the other actors you suggested, they would be using their team, school, and NCAA as vehicles to express their views. I would expect more from them. You may not, and I understand that.
As to the possibility that the women players can attest generally to the character of the accused, sure, that is possible. But aren't friends of criminals, at least after the families of criminals, often the most surprised of their criminality? Unless the women players were at the party, I find it hard to believe that they have any better idea what actually happened.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Michael,
Is it your basic argument that the...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:04:00
Michael,
Is it your basic argument that the proper forum for this case is a courtroom? And, as a consequence the declarations of innocence/guilt should not be discussed at this point because not all of the information is available and/or information that is available is biased/incomplete?
If so, I can understand the underlying theory because innocence or guilt should not be determined in the media. I do think that is perhaps a bit unrealistic in this day and age. Moreover, I think that people should be able to express their opinions on a matter of public interest and scrutiny because of the simple fact that it is a matter of public interest. This is true even for the Duke Women's Lacrosse Team members. Just because the team is one of many faces of Duke, does not mean it cannot speak its mind. The players don't lose their right to opinions because they are members of the team and students of the university.
I would also like to say I was wrong in my last post about the author's supposed view on an issue. It is clear now that the author opposes any statement of support or opposition that does not come from the mouths of the alleged victim or accused, and not just those in support of the accused.
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
Interesting, thanks for the response. You are r...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:08:00
Interesting, thanks for the response. You are right, I do not expect more from them than to stand by their friends if they truly believe they are innocent. Im not sure why I should. Perhaps they have no more facts than you and I, but I do not believe their knowledge of the players' character is not at all relevant (I am sure the jury will hear about it, and not *just* testimony about what happened at the party).
As to your question about who is surprised to learn about criminality and who is not, I dont know, nor do I comprehend why it matters. Sure, they could have informed beliefs and end up being wrong. Forming an inaccurate belief certainly cannot be a sufficient condition for becoming a "simpleton" or "drone", is it? Your point must be that the information they *might* have does not have any value. I (obviously) disagree. In any event, it remains plausible that they have a sincere belief based on their knowledge of the boys' character, and are expressing as much. I just dont view the terms "simpleton" or "propoganda drone" as helpful descriptors of what is going on here.
Posted By : Joshua Wright
Justin Verlander and Joel Zumaya are both throwing...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:33:00
Justin Verlander and Joel Zumaya are both throwing well (Verlander more so) as rookies. They have a couple of 3-4 year pitchers doing well, and Kenny Rogers has been a pleasant surprise.
Their bullpen throws extremely hard - Roman Colon threw hard with the Braves, and is in their pen now. Zumaya can hit 100. Rodney can hit 96-97.
As for the offense, Polanco is extremely underrated, and best of all, Magglio Ordonez appears to be healthy (I remeber last year people were saying he was never going to be the same again)
Their schedule hasn't really challenged them thus far, although they've been surprisingly strong against Cleveland.
I think they can keep it up - they have power in the lineup and in the bullpen, and their rotation is solid. I don't think they can finish the season with the best record in the majors though.
Their next 13 games are going to be really rough - series against the Yankees, the Red Sox, the White Sox and the Blue Jays. Even Tampa Bay after that isn't easy. Those are very powerful offenses, and I'm not sure the Tigers can keep up - if they can go .500 over the next two and a half weeks, I would be very surprised.
Posted By : Satchmo
Correction - next 13 games after a series against ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:35:00
Correction - next 13 games after a series against Cleveland.
Posted By : Satchmo
The Women's LaCrosse team has performed the acts o...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:36:00
The Women's LaCrosse team has performed the acts of a jury, likely with more knowledge than anyone who has heard of the case through the media, in that they have heard evidence (stories from friends even if they weren't there (and likely they have heard from people who won't testify at trial)), have judged credibility, and made a determination of guilt or innocence.
I guess M. M.'s position is that guilt can only be determined by a jury, made up of people often on the lower end of the educational spectrum, who have no real background from which to draw credibility conclusions. So, even if OJ did use the knife he is innocent because the jury did not find him guilty. Remember, juries don't find someone innocent, they find them either guilty or not.
In conclusion, I find it amusing that the one who says others are being simple minded appears to be the most simple minded of the parties in question. In sum, I find your presumptions to be without merit, and your conclusions to be erroneous.
Posted By : Brad
Let's take a different example - a post at Deadspi...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:45:00
Let's take a different example - a post at Deadspin a few weeks ago related a story of a man walking home in Omaha, Nebraska on Mother's Day.
He saw someone dangling a sign that said "Jail the Durham Whore. Duke Lacrosse Power."
Now obviously, this man's protests are not well founded - he's making inflammatory and distasteful remarks in public about a rape case that he presumably knows nothing abut - at least, not more than your average person. He likely does not know any players or their families, or the woman involved.
Contrast that with the female players wearing wristbands with "Innocent" on them.
Is that statement any more informed by facts? Or are they letting their preconceptions and biases color their assessment of the situation as well? We can expect people to hold opinions about guilt and innocence that will be biased - this much is evident. But public displays of support are a bit more than that, aren't they?
I think the statement being made by the girls lacrosse team is not quite as inflammatory, obviously, but I still find it distasteful and irresponsible. Especially considering that the girls represent their school and the NCAA, and the guy was just a random bigot with a lot of time on his hands.
What's more important, the fact that the men's team lost their season, or the possibility that a crime may have been committed? The statement being made by the girl's team calls much of this into question.
Posted By : Satchmo
Sorry, I'm having a hard time following "Satchmo's...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:52:00
Sorry, I'm having a hard time following "Satchmo's" comment. I mean, I think we can all recognize the difference between expressing an opinion about the innocence of the accused and. . . carrying a sign that labels the alleged victim a "whore."
I don't think there's anything wrong with stating an opinion as to the innocence of the accused. Particularly when it's expressed as the Duke women are expressing it -- that is, without attacking the alleged victim. And I haven't read a a compelling argument yet that makes me think the Duke women are off base.
Posted By : john
John - the point of my comment is that the display...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:57:00
John - the point of my comment is that the display of belief of innocence (the man clearly thought the woman was at fault, the lacross team clearly supports the men being accused of the crime) is not necessarily founded on fact.
Both incidents state an opinion. But we have to think before we make those statements, especially in the case of the lacrosse team, when they appear to be stating that they're more sensitive to the men's team losing their season than to a crime being committed.
I think the public statement needs more thought than that, and I think their move is neither in good taste, nor was made with consideration of the meaning of the statement.
Posted By : Satchmo
Thank You, Anonymous.
The mere fact that ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 15:58:00
Thank You, Anonymous.
The mere fact that this animal was running before it had the opportunity of adequate bone development constitutes abuse.
Regarding the racing industry as a whole, for every horse as lauded, protected, fawned over and "valuable" as Barbaro, there are thousands of racing horses that, after their running potential has faded, or never have what it takes to enter into a racing career at all, are sold at auction for the slaughter. These are noble animals that were brought into existence deliberately by people in the racing industry, in the pursuit of MONEY. It would only be decent of these people to treat those animals with respect and care through their years - not only those years spent filling wallets while on the track.
And so, for the most part, the industry is an innately abusive situation for these animals. Barbaro has it good. Thousands of other racing horses are, well, running for their lives - literally.
Posted By : Anonymous
As a side note - what should, if anything, the sch...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 17:00:00
As a side note - what should, if anything, the school do about this? The students are after all representing the school - even if their choice of apparel does not reflect the opinion of the administration, does the administration want the association being made?
Should the NCAA do anything?
Isn't what players wear on their uniforms regulated by the NCAA? Do the sponsors of the women's team have anything to say about what they plan on wearing? If this were a high profile men's team in a similar situation, would we react differently?
Posted By : Satchmo
John said...
"Don't you mean "alleged" sexu...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 17:14:00
John said...
"Don't you mean "alleged" sexual violence? Isn't it irresponsible to assume that there was sexual violence without knowing for sure that there was, in fact, sexual violence?"
....Though sure this point will only go so far, isn't it irresponsible to believe, on the facts, that there was no sexual violence? The medical reports showed damage consistent with rape. There were also miscellaneous cuts and bruises. There were also reports she was sodomized by a broomstick (after, incidentally, lacrosse players threatened to do exactly that). But that parenthetical overplays my hand here.
Very simply:
1) Is there any plausible reason to doubt this woman was the victim of sexual violence?
2) Why should we care any less about that sexual violence if it was not committed by the men on trial for the crime, whether the actual culprits are other lacrosse players or not? Why does our regard for this case end with a sports team?
Posted By : Mackey
Even if the Duke women's wristbands are not "in go...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 17:25:00
Even if the Duke women's wristbands are not "in good taste" (which I think they are), since when does free speech have to be in good taste? And I think the statement is being made with "consideration of the meaning of the statement," -- and the meaning is. . . the Duke players are innocent. As in, not guilty.
And while the Duke women have the right to wear "innocent" bands, the University has the right to tell them that if they do, they can't play for Duke University. I don't think the University should, but it certainly could. Much like the University shut down the men's lacrosse team before any of the players had been indicted of any crime, much less convicted (an action I agree with, btw).
I don't think the NCAA has any grounds to take action against the Duke women. I don't believe there are any NCAA regulations that prevent messages on wrist bands (as long as the wristbands don't display a Native American mascot!).
Posted By : john
Holy Mackey. First of all, if there was a sexual ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 17:33:00
Holy Mackey. First of all, if there was a sexual assault, it would be tragic, and the responsible party should be caught, tried and hopefully convicted. But as to whether it should matter if "it was committed by the men on trial for the crime," well, I'll only say that I suspect it matters to the people accused of the crime. And that's all the Duke women are saying -- that in their opinion, the people accused did not do it. And they are making a stand because they believe their friends have already been convicted by the media and people like you and Satchmo and Mr. McCann. Please remember that defendants have rights, just as victimes do. And one of the rights is that they are innocent until proven guilty. It is of that that the Duke women are reminding us.
Posted By : john
John,
A few quick points....
1) The ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 17:45:00
John,
A few quick points....
1) The thrust of my comment wa s simple but important correction: your comment implied that no sexual violence might have occurred. It seems infinitely more likely that sexual violence did occur, whether committed by lacrosse players or not. This oversight is, I think, very reflective of the reasons we are interested in this case. Our concern for the "rights of [these] defendants" seem to far outweigh our concern for the "rights of [these victims.]
2) To be quite clear, the only thing wrong with an individual presuming guilt is moral consequence, not legal consequence. The presumption of innocence is a legal concept; it has no bearing on how private actors assess guilt. We might think individuals _should_ presume innocence (I think they should), but they tend not to and it's an altogether very different question.
3) I am highly skeptical of the claim that the lacrosse players have been "convicted" by the media. While I'm at it, who exactly are "people like you and Satchmo and Mr. McCann"?
Posted By : Mackey
I never presumed anything - it's just as irrespons...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 18:00:00
I never presumed anything - it's just as irresponsible to presume guilt as innocence.
John, by wearing sweatbands with innocent, the Duke women are making more than a statement that they believe the men are innocent. They make the statement as they represent Duke and participate in an NCAA event.
That they support the men's team with the "innocent" sweatbands implies that they believe that the woman involved in the case lied and made a false accusation, and perhaps that the prosecutor in the case made erroneous indictments. They appear to make the statement without consideration towards the alleged victim or the community - the only mention in the article is of the men's team and how it's sad that they didn't get to finish their season.
You think this is responsible? I agree that they have the right to make a statement - I question their taste and their judgement, and I believe that insufficient foresight was involved.
Please don't apply labels where they don't belong. It doesn't do anything for your argument. If you believe that they made the statement as a result of perceived media persecution, please provide me an example.
Furthermore, if they really felt that the men were being done a wrong in having their season suspended, perhaps they should have refused to play themselves. Wouldn't that have been a much better statement of solidarity than a sweatband with "innocent" written on it? Shouldn't their anger be directed at the administration that cancelled the season and not the crime at hand, which they don't have any more firsthand knowledge about than you or me?
Posted By : Satchmo
Geoff: You could be right. But regardless, I'm s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 18:25:00
Geoff: You could be right. But regardless, I'm sure there's a way to give steroids credit for it somehow :)
Michael: Good question. New managers can sometimes turn teams around on a dime (i.e. the '03 Marlins).
None: No comment because I don't have a clue how to respond to that.
Fan's Attic: See response to Michael above.
Satchmo: Good points. But I wonder if a healthy Ordonez is offset by an unproductive Dimitri Young this year? And you're right about the hard throwers. Dombrowski has a history of signing flamethrowers.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Rick - it's true that Dmitri hasn't been productiv...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 20:35:00
Rick - it's true that Dmitri hasn't been productive, but he hasn't been particularly productive the last two years - compared to other 1B/DH types, his 2004 and 2005 were not much more than average, if at all. His physical profile and lack of plate patience doesn't bode well at this stage of his career.
Magglio on the other hand looks to be producing on the same level as his better years with the White Sox - OPS is right around the same level, and K/BB ratio is just a tad worse. I think a healthy Maggs offsets the loss of Dmitri pretty well.
The best may be yet to come though - Zumaya should be a starter in the future, and a top three of Bonderman/Verlander/Zumaya could be dominant in 2007. Definitely something to look forward to.
Posted By : Satchmo
I, too, am a Detroit native and a recent graduate ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-25 - 20:36:00
I, too, am a Detroit native and a recent graduate from Michigan State (go green!). I am probably not the only one who is loving what is going on, but also holding their breath waiting for the collapse.
Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones, two additions we paid way too much for, but now are paying huge dividends by helping the young staff. Just check out the growth of Mike Maroth (don't look at today though, bad day), Nate Robertson, and Fernando Rodney. These pitchers don't even look the same as they did last year.
Everybody knew the lineup was going to hit, and hitting they are doing. Not just homeruns, but great timely and clutch hitting. I would like to see the percentage of runs they score when there are two outs in the inning.
Jimmy Leyland is doing a fine job and the coaching they have around him are also doing their job...it is easy to say that leyland is in the drivers seat for coach of the year 1/3 through the season!
Now it is time to just hold my breath and hope I can enjoy this ride into October!
I just found this site and loving it, I am taking the LSAT in September and am hoping to study Sports Law starting in the fall of 07! Feel free to give me advice, I am always open to new ways of thinking!
Posted By : Chris Lucas
Chris,
Welcome to the Blog.
Excelle...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 10:53:00
Chris,
Welcome to the Blog.
Excellent point about clutch hitting. Batting avg. is the statistic often used to measure a hitter's performance, but I think a much more important statistic is "batting avg. with two outs and runners in scoring position".
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Mackey:
"infinitely more possible"?
...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 11:05:00
Mackey:
"infinitely more possible"?
Putting aside that I doubt the medical report used the term "damage", that she had injuries consistent with sexual assualt is really not that telling in and of itself. As many women will tell you, garden variety consensual sex is often tramautic to that area and obviously as the intensity increases so does the trauma, certainly enough to produce injuries consistent with rape. We also know very little about that report, so at this point I think it is premature to point to it as strong evidence that a sexual assault occurred.
You also refer to a "report" that she was sodomized with a broomstick. The only "report" of it I recall is her dad alleging it. Note that her dad also concluded that the use of a broomstick explained why the sex acts did not leave any DNA. Note also there is no indication that she ever told the police about it.
Finally, miscellaneous cuts and bruises? Considering all reports describe her as incapacitated by the end of the night(whether by her own doing or not), I don't think it is unreasonable to believe those cuts and bruises were not from a sexual assault.
You also have her previous allegation, which we know very little about, but which should also temper our rush to conclusions about anything.
My only point is that based on the evidence currently available I think it is irresponsible to conclude that more likely than not a sexual assault occurred. Therefore, referring to her as a victim of sexual assault is no more irresponsible that asserting the innocence of the players.
Posted By : Anonymous
Chris, sadly, I guess I have to be the one to brea...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 11:11:00
Chris, sadly, I guess I have to be the one to break to you that there's a "first year curriculum." Good luck on the LSAT and in your application, but other than a stray case, it's unlikely you'll get into a Sports Law class until Fall '08, at the earliest!
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Michael--There are two circumstances where pro lea...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 14:52:00
Michael--There are two circumstances where pro leagues have retired a number throughout the league (but allowing any current players wearing the number to wear it until they are done with their career):
MLB -- #42 for Jackie Robinson (the only players are Mariano Rivera and Mo Vaughn; there is a coach who has #42 as well I think).
NHL -- #99 for Wayne Gretzky (no player wears #99 now).
There have been circumstances where a team will ASK a player whose number was retired if he would O.K. another player wearing that number, but not too often.
In college and high school football, a number "retired" is retired only for five years, due to the large rosters; otherwise we'd be up to jerseys in three digits at the larger schools. The same applies to college/H.S. basketball, but there, the available numbers are severly limited by rule (0 or 00 [not both], 1-5, 10-15, 20-25, 30-35, 40-45, and 50-55 are the allowed numbers; this has been since the 1950's, I think.)
Melvin H.
Posted By : Anonymous
The stand the IU has made to support Sampson shows...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 21:06:00
The stand the IU has made to support Sampson shows once again that collegiate basketball is not about furthering the education of each of its participants, but a business. I went to Oklahoma State University for my undergrad studies so I like to believe I know all about Sampson due to the Bedlam Series (maybe just a little biased), but to see the former president of ethics of the NABC support one thing and then decide to go against it, stating "hard work" bothers me.
I realize "amateur" sports are more about business these days instead of furthering the education of these young athletes (for my capstone internship I was a varsity assistant coach for a successful high school basketball program and saw, with my own eyes, that business has taken over high school basketball as well) but it is sad to witness.
I hope one day (I am sure my hoping is falling on deaf ears) that the mainstream winners are not cheating to get ahead but are actually putting the hard (and correct) work that is needed to sustain a great program and will not fall into the traps of cheating to get ahead.
Posted By : Chris Lucas
Thanks Dr. Rapp for the "breaking" of the bad news...
Message posted on : 2006-05-26 - 21:40:00
Thanks Dr. Rapp for the "breaking" of the bad news. I have come to realize that there is a first year schedule for most law students, but after that first year I (as of now) have my mind set on Sports Law. I have come to realize that first year law students (pretty much across the nation) will have their first year students in general required classes that the law school sets forth. I studied Kinesiology at MSU for my Master's and was lucky enough to have sports law as one of my required classes. I fell in love with the field and have always thought about going to law school (I just didn't realize that at the age of 24 I would be on my way).
Thank you Dr. Rapp and Mr. Karcher for welcoming to this website. I hope I get inspired to comment frequently and thank you for the advice and warning.
PS. Tigers just beat the Indians 8-3...14 out of the last 15, and what do I know, only 2 of the RBI's came with 2 outs today!
Posted By : Chris Lucas
Something that stands out about this site (which I...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 00:01:00
Something that stands out about this site (which I'm not familiar with) is its structure - if you look at the "About Us" page, you see that in addition to being an extremely well designed site, each contributer has a very specific role, which contributes to the appearance of a very professional website (which from the looks of it is not just superficial).
Just the look and the hierarchy could easily increase its perceived value, among everyone from fans to NBA scouts to agents.
Even so, I'm surprised that the President is receiving invites to exclusive workouts - consider how hard it is for sports bloggers to get on the inside (whether they should want to be on the "inside" is a different discussion). Does Givony have significant previous scouting experience? That could explain both the invite and the reaction by the agents.
Posted By : Satchmo
Chris,
Thanks for the comment. I understan...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 07:40:00
Chris,
Thanks for the comment. I understand your point about it being a "business" and that's just a fact of life. However, it can still be treated like a business without violating NCAA rules and regulations.
When IU hired Sampson last month, it was basically saying to the NCAA, "Bring it on". I mean, is Sampson that good of a coach with no other hiring options available at the time, such that you would be willing to roll the dice on NCAA sanctions imposed? But even if IU felt the answer to that question is yes, the sole act of hiring the guy (and then saying he's a man of "highest integrity" and that he simply made an error in judgment) when he intentionally violated NCAA rules involving over 500 impermissible phone calls to recruits, to me, sends a message to the NCAA and the world that they condone what he did and that they condone NCAA rule violations.
I don't have anything against IU --and who knows, maybe 3 years from now Sampson leads them to a national title -- I just think it's gutsy on their part.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Cool Blog!Please take a look at this adress: http:...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 08:33:00
Cool Blog!Please take a look at this adress: http://www.cheap-penis-extender.go.ro
Posted By : cyril
Is "innocent" some kind of kind of privileged whit...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 12:39:00
Is "innocent" some kind of kind of privileged white kid code for "lying ni$$er"?
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael,
Couldn't agree more. First, scout...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 14:04:00
Michael,
Couldn't agree more. First, scouts are not influenced one bit by these websites/mock drafts, etc. Secondly, how foolish for these agents to act as they did. But you raise an interesting question about how Thomas (or any other player in the same situation) should feel about his agent acting this way. Thomas might not even be aware of it.
I think this is just one example of the nature of the agent business. Many agents do not conduct themselves in a professional, business-like manner even though they are engaged in a professional services business. Unfortunately, agents can get away with it because players are not sophisticated consumers and oftentimes don't know what's improper, unethical or unprofessional.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Will,
Those are really good contextual ques...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 14:13:00
Will,
Those are really good contextual questions. I'm not sure if Givony has scouted for an NBA team (or other team), although I do not see that kind of experience listed anywhere on the website. However, and as your comment suggests, perhaps the quality of his analysis has generated both attention from NBA teams and respect from agents (evidenced by the private workout invite) and thus proven influential. I'm not sure.
In a way, this story is another sign of how influential on-line journalism has become. But even so, I'm not sure if NBA Draft websites actually influence the decision-making of NBA general managers. They certainly influence fans' perceptions of prospective draft picks, but do Bryan Colangelo and Danny Ainge et al. (and their staffs) read these websites? That's really the underlying question, and I'm not sure how to answer it.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Rick,
Those are great points about the poor...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 14:38:00
Rick,
Those are great points about the poor behavior agents that can get away with because they are in largely unregulated fields (an important subject of your scholarship). Along those lines, it seems like new technologies/forms of communication (e.g. Internet; text messaging)--which are even less regulated--only further enable those kinds of agents. I think some agents really struggle to distinguish appropriately aggressive representation from overzealous and counterproductive advocacy.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I'm sure steroids will come up when Barry Bonds si...
Message posted on : 2006-05-27 - 22:03:00
I'm sure steroids will come up when Barry Bonds signs with the Tigers as a DH (if Oakland does not re-sign Thomas) so that Barry can hang with his buddy, Leyland. In the meantime, the Tigers are playing great baseball. Enjoy it.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Is Tagliabue the best commissioner in professional...
Message posted on : 2006-05-28 - 07:33:00
Is Tagliabue the best commissioner in professional sports?
I would have to say yes. Just lool at the attendance and Tv ratings.
I think you hit the nail on the head
Patio Furniture
Posted By : Anonymous
Rick:
Have a good and productive conference...
Message posted on : 2006-05-28 - 21:43:00
Rick:
Have a good and productive conference.
Do you folks make any recommendations to the sports world such as: Collective Barganing Agreement (CBA), revenue sharing by teams in baseball, contraction in sports, moving franchises, and the many other issues that confronts the world of sports today?
Also, is a synopsis of the proceedings available post conference?
Have a good conference
Posted By : Richard Mock
We already have polices in Sport to deal with gene...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 08:19:00
We already have polices in Sport to deal with genetic doping, specifically natural androgen doping that results from a functioning set of testicle and a SRY region in the genome.
Deciding who is a "woman" and thus eligable to compete in women's events has been a problem at times, what about XX males, XY females?
Overall it has worked out, and I think it should be the model for other genetic issues in sport. Let everyone compete, but if nessacary set classes so that everyone can compete.
This will probably result in Pro Sports being a mutent's game, but maybe there will still be an audance for people who do moves that are at least within the theoritical capability of the viewers.
Posted By : vrimj
Tyrus Thomas isn't going to be a great player and ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 12:26:00
Tyrus Thomas isn't going to be a great player and his agent wants to keep his stock up for as long as he can. I think deep down the agent knows that Thomas isn't very likely to be a superstar and is trying to do what is best for his client. He was hired to protect and promote his client. However, I think he went about this the wrong way. It's like in poker, you don't show your cards to the very end because then we all know your bluffing.
Posted By : Ron Jumper
Gilbert Arenas would have been a bad teammate had ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 15:40:00
Gilbert Arenas would have been a bad teammate had he not stood by fellow team Awvee Storey. Storey was causing trouble because he feels like he could, which is wrong, but I can't really put much fault on Arenas. If you have ever been on a college or professional sports team then you know the bond players develop when going through the daily grind.
Posted By : Ron Jumper
I agree I am doing a research paper on NASCAR and ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 15:52:00
I agree I am doing a research paper on NASCAR and am trying to prove that it is a sport. Your blog is one of my references because this report is based in opinion. Oh and I watch Nascar sometimes on tv and it is deffinitely a sport.
Posted By : Anonymous
Ron,
Thanks for your comment. You raise a...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 15:55:00
Ron,
Thanks for your comment. You raise an important point about Arenas being loyal to a teammate, and I agree that one is generally considered a better teammate when he/she is loyal to teammates.
But Arenas seems to endorse two beliefs that are far less praiseworthy: 1) he is above-the-law because he is an NBA player; and 2) his loyalty to a teammate is more important than what the law dictates. I can't image that most people would advocate either of those two beliefs.
Posted By : Michael McCann
I'm wondering about the Jose Mesa-Omar Vizquel feu...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 16:40:00
I'm wondering about the Jose Mesa-Omar Vizquel feud, as detailed here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2458797
Mesa said publicly that he would throw at Vizquel every time they faced one another, and he has hit him three times since then. (He says that's all over now.)
In fact, Mesa's quote is almost homicidal: "If I face him 10 more times, I'll hit him 10 times. I want to kill him."
If a pitcher avows his intention to hit a batter in advance of the fact affect his legal standing if he were to injure the batter?
Posted By : Ralph Hickok
"...resisting without violence"? Seems an ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 18:41:00
"...resisting without violence"? Seems an odd phrase, no?
A correction to your comment, Michael. Instead of "Arenas seems to endorse..." you should be saying "According to the report of an officer Arenas apparently..." Having been on the receiving end of a police officer's outright lies in their report, I wouldn't bet a bucket of warm spit that Arenas actually said that.
Collin
Posted By : Anonymous
Just found your blog,--thanks for the links. I'll ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-29 - 22:52:00
Just found your blog,--thanks for the links. I'll add them in. I'd like to find out more about sports arbitration and mediation, particularly people in the blogsphere. Thanks!
RMullen [at] adrdiversity [dot] com
Posted By : R. Mullen
Richard,
Thanks for the note. SLA does not...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 07:43:00
Richard,
Thanks for the note. SLA does not make formal recommendations that I am aware of. However, some of the members of SLA are very influential decision makers within the sports world (i.e. heads of players associations, professional team and league counsel, NCAA legal staff, etc.). I don't believe there is a synopsis or transcript of the proceedings made available.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Student-athlete. XXXXXXX-athlete.
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 10:25:00
Student-athlete. XXXXXXX-athlete.
Posted By : Anonymous
Seems like the product of a whine-athon more than ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 10:48:00
Seems like the product of a whine-athon more than anything else, coming from the major conferences.
Used to having their five or more NCAA bids rubber-stamped for the last 30 years, we're only seeing a huge push for expansion now that teams like Florida State are getting snubbed in favor of teams like George Mason or Wichita State.
In contrast, I'd wish for a contraction from 64 back to 48 teams, because it doesn't seem that there are that many good teams in the college game.
Posted By : Anonymous
Not that many good teams in the college game? Huh...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 11:40:00
Not that many good teams in the college game? Huh? Didn't George Mason, one of the last two or three teams let in to the field make the Final Four? Did I miss something here?
Posted By : Chad McEvoy
More teams means more upsets and less credibility ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 11:57:00
More teams means more upsets and less credibility for the National Champion. Its already an open secret that the best team very rarely wins. 130 teams in the tournament would make the regular season all but worthless.
Posted By : Adam
Here was my suggestion about tournament expansion ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 14:33:00
Here was my suggestion about tournament expansion when it first came up in April.
Expand to 96 teams. Give the top 32 teams a bye and play the other 64 against one another. The winners of those games get into the 64 slots of the NCAA tournament.
The 32 losers go to the NIT.
Thirty two teams will "play in" to the NCAA tournament; that will probably give some of the power conferences seven or eight entrants in the field of 96. The pressure would be on those squads to show all those "pipsqueak" teams just who's the boss... Wouldn't it be lovely to have the NIT comprised of 18-20 teams from the Big Ten, Big East and ACC while loads of "nobodies" from the WAC and the Mountain West and the MAC go to the main attraction?
Posted By : The Sports Curmudgeon
We've come to recognize that athletic skills lead ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 14:37:00
We've come to recognize that athletic skills lead to fame and forutne and thus the following equation applies:
Fame + Wealth = "Get Out Of Jail Free Card"
If the reports are correct here, then Gilbert Arenas seems to be taking all of this into the fourth dimension because he seems to believe:
Fame + Wealth Derived from the NBA = "You Can't Arrest Me In The First Place Card".
Wow!
Posted By : The Sports Curmudgeon
What the NCAA should do is cut the tournament back...
Message posted on : 2006-05-30 - 16:06:00
What the NCAA should do is cut the tournament back to 24 teams and only have conference champions compete (yeah, I know, fat chance). Barring that they should just go ahead and expand the thing and invite all D-I teams; a tournament of 256 teams would only mean two more games than one of 64. If they eliminated the conference tournaments the season wouldn't be any longer than it is now. Rank all the teams from 1 to 340 (or whatever), and then the bottom 84 have a one game play in round. Then rank the remaining 256 and have #1 play #256, #2 play #255, etc. After the first game re-rank the winners 1 thru 128 and do the same thing; #1 plays #128, and so on. That gets you down to 64 teams and then the NCAA can conduct the remainder of the tournament the same way they do now. If nothing else it would stop all of the whining about whether the 8th place team in the ACC was more deserving of a bid than the runner-up team in some mid-major conference.
Posted By : Anonymous
This just simply can't be done...
The NCAA ...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 00:22:00
This just simply can't be done...
The NCAA Tournament is absolutely perfect the way it is. If you add teams then the first round becomes completely not interesting. I don't want to fill out a 100 team bracket. That would take entirely too much time and I would lose interest. It will happen eventually though because the NCAA makes billions of dollars off the players. What a shame...
Posted By : Sports Overload
Taking Ralph's point one step further, should Mesa...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 09:28:00
Taking Ralph's point one step further, should Mesa's manager be required to remove Mesa from the game when Vizquel comes to the plate?
Would it be negligent supervision for the employer to leave Mesa in the game in light of his homicidal intent?
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Although I've never been a Tigers fan, I am intrig...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 09:55:00
Although I've never been a Tigers fan, I am intrigued by their young pitchers (Kenny Rogers doesn't count).
Anyway, Jim Leyland had a growing reputation in his last two jobs of being a manager who left his pitchers on the mound too long. There is substantial research indicating that consistently high pitch counts shorten pitching careers (Livan Hernandez being the exception).
I was concerned when Leyland took the job that he would take his penchant for high pitch counts into the Detroit situation, and ruin Verlander, Robertson, Bonderman, Zumaya, and to a lesser extent, Maroth.
So I've been following the pitch counts of the Detroit pitchers this year. Leyland has either reformed his former tendencies to accommodate his young talent, or those were never tendencies at all. So far there have only been two starts that might be considered abusive, and one was Kenny Rogers, who deserves it.
Despite the other comments, the three best players so far have been Verlander, Shelton and Guillen, in that order. Polanco is actually hurting the team. He is hitting .294, but he has only walked twice and only has 6 extra base hits in 180 plate appearances. No amount of defense can make up for that.
P.S. Clutch hitting is largely luck, so if that's a big factor in Detroit's success, expect a correction.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I think it is important to remember that upsets, w...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 10:19:00
I think it is important to remember that upsets, while they get all the attention and generate a lot of excitement, are still the exception, not the rule.
The #15 seeds almost never win, and the #16 seeds have never won. There are a sprinkling of #10-#14 seeds that win each year. It is really the #8-#9 game that is the toss up.
If the #32 seeds were playing the #1 seeds, and so on down the line, it seems like it would be even uglier. Although undoubtedly we'd see a re-ordering of the seeds, in theory our formerly inept #16 seeds would be in the middle of the bracket playing each other. Yuck.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
ACLU knows it won't win this one, that's why the b...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 10:21:00
ACLU knows it won't win this one, that's why the best they can do is publicly attack the policy.
Posted By : Anonymous
For the record, Arenas denies making such a statem...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 14:03:00
For the record, Arenas denies making such a statement. Here is what Arenas told the Washington Post:
"All I did was get out of the car to ask where they were taking Awvee so I could come get him out, and some officer comes up from behind and cuffs me ... Everyone knows me. They know I don't have a cocky personality. I don't use my name to get in trouble and I don't use my name to get out of trouble. That would never come out of my mouth."
Joshua Wright (sorry, having trouble logging in to blogger).
Posted By : Anonymous
This is exactly what needs to be done. If this s...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 16:24:00
This is exactly what needs to be done. If this sets a nationwide trend, congress may be forced to deal with some real issues instead of interfering with the business of professional sports under the guise of protecting America's youth.
Posted By : Anonymous
Uh, this is a state law issue and testing is funde...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 17:19:00
Uh, this is a state law issue and testing is funded by the states. This is not a federal issue at the high school level.
Posted By : Anonymous
anonymous #2 seems to have missed the point of ano...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 18:36:00
anonymous #2 seems to have missed the point of anonymous #1's post. It is well established that high school students can be tested, that is why the ACLU is sitting this one out. Why parade pro athletes across the senate floor to address steroid abuse among kids. Although I haven't read the entire book, I have heard no reports that “Game of Shadows� depicts any instances were a pro athlete and a group of high school football players met up to inject one another with steroids. The business of pro sports is just that… a business. Illicit steroid use is already illegal for anyone, including pro athletes. Leave the leagues alone and deal with the actual stated problem... Steroid abuse and kids. Test the kids if you want the kids to stop using steroids.
Posted By : Anonymous
I think they are unhappy that Vrijman talked about...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 18:44:00
I think they are unhappy that Vrijman talked about the case before they could "review" it, no?
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous #2 may actually be sarcastic. Just don't...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 19:36:00
Anonymous #2 may actually be sarcastic. Just don't know. If not, however, Anonymous #4 is correct about Anonymous #1's post and that Anonymous #2 is just missing the point. Bottom line: The ACLU can scream hissy fits about drug testing at the intercollegiate level, but it is highly likely they would have their ass handed to them in court...quite reminiscent of Yale Law School (and others) when they proclaimed that they had the right to exclude the military from their premises but at the same time had the right to have taxpayers' money (sorry, I know a statement their outside the scope of sports law).
Posted By : Anonymous
It appears this information was released more or l...
Message posted on : 2006-05-31 - 22:10:00
It appears this information was released more or less just to foreshadow upcoming intrigue on this issue. If he was truly off the hook I would think there would be more conclusive evidence and support of his innocence.
Posted By : Sports Overload
This is a very good post and it is certainly relev...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 12:39:00
This is a very good post and it is certainly relevant to sports law. Hmmmm. If Miroslav Satan (NHL) were a baseball player, I presume he would not be on that team. Better yet, should players named "Jesus" have their names changed out of respect? Gee, if you are Shawn Green, don't go to Colorado and ask off for Yom Kippur. I wonder if there are Christian-based performance enhancing drugs (because they would be okay, then)?
Posted By : Anonymous
The thing about doping is that so much relies on t...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 12:47:00
The thing about doping is that so much relies on the outcome of the investigations. It's strict liability and therefore one cannot come to conclusions that are not based on conclusive evidence. I guess the same line of thought applies to athletes who are no longer competing. Although Armstrong has nothing to loose in terms of participation and salaries, his place in history would be undermined.
Posted By : Luis Cassiano Neves
This is the writer of the linked article. I was tr...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:13:00
This is the writer of the linked article. I was traveling on the West Coast this past week watching a number of workouts so I just now saw this posting.
To respond to some of what was mentioned both in the post and the comments:
-According to the agents, Tyrus Thomas was the one (in addition to the agents) who vetoed us coming in, saying “Tyrus was surfing the web this morning and saw your report [mock draft] on Hoopshype. Tyrus is irate, and we've been given marching orders to cancel the workout...Tyrus is a smart kid who understands basketball and marketing…He blew off his handle and said he is not working out for you guys. People pay close to attention to what is written on your site…players like to see themselves favorably evaluated…You are trying to control people.� This is all part of a much larger article that was eventually nixed in order to not pile it on and hurt the agents more than they needed to be from this highly questionable move. Apparently we weren't the only NBA draft related scouting service who had a workout cancelled for questionable reasons...except the other guy was a LOT bigger than us.
-Regarding my experience in the field. When I started doing this I had none. Since we started three years ago, I've done some consulting work in the "off-season" for NBA teams, and also now hold a position with a very well respected team in the Euroleague.
-From what I've been told personally straight from the horses mouths, NBA execs do read our stuff, everyday in fact. We have an open dialogue with a number of them because they want to be informed about things we are hearing about their own team as well as other things that effect what they are trying to accomplish. All NBA people read Hoopshype.com every day, and we're quoted there on a daily basis and also run their mock draft.
-Thanks for the shout out. This put us in a situation we've never been in before, and hopefully will never have to be in again in the future.
JG
Posted By : Anonymous
Of course, if the religious identity was anything ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:25:00
Of course, if the religious identity was anything beside generic Christianity, Malkin would see to it that the Rockies lost a lot of fans. Which is precisely why most don't do it. Everyone's too afraid of alienating or offending somebody.
What are the laws regarding religious indoctrination in the workplace? I imagine they're pretty lax, but since the teams recieve a lot of tax dollars, does that result in any restrictions?
Posted By : Adam
Wow. Adam has some good points, no easy answers in...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:33:00
Wow. Adam has some good points, no easy answers in sports law and religion. WWJD?
Posted By : Anonymous
"You can't arrest me. I'm a basketball player."
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:38:00
"You can't arrest me. I'm a basketball player."
I'm inclined to believe Arenas on this one. When I first read that I was a bit skeptical anyway, because it doesn't sound like something anyone would say, even an arrogant, self-indulgent professional athlete. It would have been phrased different. More in your face. That's just a gut impression.
More than that, and purely anecdotal with a million caveats, it doesn't sound like Gilbert Arenas. Living in D.C. and being one of a dozen die-hard NBA fans, you get a feel for what people are like. Certainly those feelings can be wrong, but I don't know, there have never been any inklings that he's that type of person.
Regardless, I wish the story/blog post would have added that Arenas's side of the story was was still unknown, because as we now see, he has a very different recollection of what happened.
Posted By : RPS
Adam said. . . "I imagine they're pretty lax, but ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:50:00
Adam said. . . "I imagine they're pretty lax, but since the teams recieve a lot of tax dollars, does that result in any restrictions? "
Do teams receive "a lot of tax dollars"? In what ways?
Posted By : RPS
maybe Adam meant "taxpayer" dollars? Question: How...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 13:59:00
maybe Adam meant "taxpayer" dollars? Question: How would fans act if instead of a bench clearing brawl, the Rockies started to love their enemies?
Posted By : Anonymous
Is it just me, or in the picture does the kid not ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 15:11:00
Is it just me, or in the picture does the kid not have a legal claim for assault, battery and what not against Jesus?
Posted By : Anonymous
Sovereign immunity, perhaps?
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 15:29:00
Sovereign immunity, perhaps?
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
Wow, some of the people commenting to this post ha...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 15:34:00
Wow, some of the people commenting to this post have absolutely no idea how much trouble a cop can get into if he lies about what is said at an arrest. RPS, what you wrote about Arenas doesn't really jive with his bizarre behavior--this is a guy who plays on-line poker during halftimes and takes showers in his full uniform. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it does make him strange, just like what he told the cops.
Posted By : Steve
You'll have to pardon the snarkiness, but what hap...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 15:41:00
You'll have to pardon the snarkiness, but what happens when the Rockies play the Padres? Do they have to lose? Do the Rockies and their new philosophy have conflicting interests with their home park, Coors Field?
Ok sorry about that. In all seriousness, from the article, and what has been said afterwards, I don't think this is some kind of non-secular Moneyball - it doesn't seem to affect everyday decisions or draft strategy, for example.
But while they do say that they don't push the beliefs on anyone, does this make it significantly harder for either a player or a new staff member or executive to fit in?
I'd actually be more concered for new front office hires, considering the statement in the paper that "it's not unusual for front office executives to pray together." Do they then take religious affiliation into account when looking for new VPs of scouting, for example? Would this then be a violation of Title VII?
Posted By : Satchmo
Jonathan,
Thanks for this additional inform...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 17:46:00
Jonathan,
Thanks for this additional information, and for posting a link on DraftExpress. Unfortunately for Tyrus Thomas, he seems to be creating his own self-fulfilling draft prophecy. Your remarks do cast his agents in a better light, but did they do a good enough job trying to talk him out of rescinding the work-out invitations?
Posted By : Michael McCann
...and would a potential hiree named Muhammed Wein...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 17:50:00
...and would a potential hiree named Muhammed Weinstein have an inherent disadvantage in the hiring process?
Posted By : Anonymous
They should just shut down the Rockies and call it...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 22:40:00
They should just shut down the Rockies and call it a day.
Posted By : Yes Man
Let's not give credit where credit is not due.
...
Message posted on : 2006-06-01 - 23:12:00
Let's not give credit where credit is not due.
Draftexpress is a very informational site and I don't want to take anything away from what they do, but the guys at the site are more fans than anything else.
The mocks, writeups, etc. always seem to push some sort of agenda, especially when it comes to "their" favorite players.
In a draft lacking ready to play players and players with superstar potential, it's hard to reasonably fathom 6 teams passing on a talent like Tyrus Thomas.
Unfortunately, sites like draftexpress, and draft.net do receive the attention they do in the sense that you have players and teams making decisions in some part to what is being reported on their sites.
Of course the agents have a right to be upset, because they know this to be so. The NBA is a business, and these guys right now are stocks, and they need their values to be as high as they can be, in Thomas's case, even more so for the reasons I stated above. To say the NBA people don't pay attention to this stuff is absolutely ridiculous, the Bucks GM publicly said he got the idea to trade for Jamaal Magloire from something he read on hoopshype.com, quotes from draftexpress are on the site's rumors section, daily, so they don't see this stuff and don't pay attention?
Come on.
Regardless of whether or not draftexpress "likes" a certain player, doesn't change that player's ability nor does it change their draft stock. Furthermore, none of us are privy to who in the NBA likes who and where they like them, so let's not give these sites too much credit and act like they are providing any source of fact.
Myself, you, any guy on your street can make a mock draft and post it on a website. Anybody can watch a game then write a scouting report on a player, but you can see a player as a one trick pony, and draftexpress can see that player as a future all-star, the problem there is once draftexpress expresses their opinion on a player they stick with that opinion, and the yellow journalism episode last year with John Gilchrist is one reason why the site is now draftexpress.
At the end of the day, our guesses are just as good as theirs, until the site is run by R.C. Buford, Tony Ronzone, and Marty Blake, that is the way it will continue to be.
Posted By : Cristian
I can't believe some people feel they must discred...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 00:41:00
I can't believe some people feel they must discredit Draft Express by noting that it is a non-profit site and thus somehow it loses credibility.
Just read the quality of information - it is first-rate, first-class and I am saying this as a guy with several years experience in scouting (although hockey and not basketball).
Draft Express should be supported and also commanded for doing all of this work. Much lesser people would be charging a fortune for this stuff, but they do what they do out of sheer love for basketball.
Stop the intimidation.
- JD
Posted By : Anonymous
Michael: As an agent, you can only hope for fairn...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 10:27:00
Michael: As an agent, you can only hope for fairness from 'draft experts.' Oftentimes, you feel as if a 'draft expert' is in the pocket of certain agents who provide them information. Undoubtedly, Elfus/Siegel feel that way. As a practical example, I asked one of the Draft Express people to research a workout yesterday when our player, Gerry McNamara, got the upper hand on Allan Ray and from what I heard, crushed the #22 on the Draft Express board, Guillermo Diaz. I provided him numbers of people at Minnesota to check it out. Further, I invited him to come to our workout. If the site is truly fair, he will make those calls and report what he hears. It works both ways.
Bill Neff
Posted By : Anonymous
The idea of religion in sports can't happen for a ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 10:38:00
The idea of religion in sports can't happen for a couple of reasons.
First, if a professional team takes a certain religion as its own it will offend fans and hurt revenue(thats even if the players agree in the first place).
Second, I don't want this to happen because then athletes can start telling me how God had a plan for them going 1 for 14 in the World Series. When in reality, they just stunk up the joint. I hate how athletes give credit to God for their success when, in reality there were probably guys on the other team that lost that prayed for victory as well. Being thankful and appreciative for what He has done in your life is a completely different thing.
Posted By : Sports Overload
FYI. It would appear that the UCI continually have...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 11:54:00
FYI. It would appear that the UCI continually have issues with the release of information and an affinity for using the word "deplorable�.
I refer you to the UCI statement of September 9, condemning the WADA, the French laboratory in question, and the paper L'Equipe, for having failed to provide any official communication, and having failed to provide any data, evidence, or background on the allegations. The UCI further stated that "We deplore (emphasis added) the fact that the long-established and entrenched confidentiality principle could be violated in such a flagrant way without any respect for fair play and the rider's privacy."
I am certain more fun is to come on this issue.
Posted By : Anonymous
Can't forget antitrust. WGN wants to televise a C...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 12:18:00
Can't forget antitrust. WGN wants to televise a Cubs pre-game spelling bee but it can't because ESPN has these kids sign contracts that prohibit them from engaging in another televised spelling bee?
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Rick, that's a good point. Do I sense a possible ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 12:24:00
Rick, that's a good point. Do I sense a possible law review article here? We now have five real issues that we could co-author into the definitive (and only) piece on spelling bees and sports law.
Posted By : Michael McCann
o.k. you can cover the age eligibility, collective...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 12:36:00
o.k. you can cover the age eligibility, collective bargaining and non-statutory labor exemption issues. I'll cover contract, antitrust and agent issues. I'll argue that the term "student-athlete" must be revised in the Uniform Athlete Agents Act to include the agents of spelling bee whiz kids.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
What about the picketers
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 13:02:00
What about the picketers who want to amend the nation's spelling system? Aside from the fact that they count actress Rebecca Romijn's mother as a member, I haven't seen much about them in the past couple of days. Were they there demonstrating?
What are the legal issues at hand there, both in their demonstration outside a sporting event and in the possiblity of amending the nation's system of spelling?
Posted By : Satchmo
Oh, I forgot to mention the performance enhancing ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 13:08:00
Oh, I forgot to mention the performance enhancing substance issues. Kids should not have an unfair advantage by eating salmon for lunch before a spelling bee (salmon contains omega 3 oil that's good for brain power).
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Bill,
Thanks for those comments, and I am g...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 14:09:00
Bill,
Thanks for those comments, and I am glad that you are providing the agent's side of the story with NBA draft websites. As you note, it is a two-way street, and any news website (just like any credible media source) needs to be balanced in how it approaches a story. Ignoring a story can be just as bad as reporting erroneously about one. I wish you and your clients well in this draft.
Cristian,
I agree with JD: I'm not sure why you are going after DraftExpress. Your point about DraftExpress' writers being biased is true of any writer in any setting. And how can one produce a mock draft without being biased in some way or another? By its nature, a mock draft entails subjective valuations of players, and any subjective valuation, by anyone, will bring out biases.
Moreover, there is a difference between Jonathan Givony producing a mock draft and someone like me (or probably you) doing one. Jonathan actually sees the players in private workouts, he closely follows news about their performances, and he talks to scouts and agents about those players--I don't do any of those things. So he is not just like any Joe producing a mock draft on a website--he's far more informed about the players and team interests than probably 99% of people with websites. That doesn't mean his predictions will be proven correct, but at least when compared to most of us with websites, they seem far more reliant on insight than hunch.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Haha Dr. Karcher, you beat me to that one. The Mc...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 14:37:00
Haha Dr. Karcher, you beat me to that one. The McDonalds diet vs. herbal supplement diet...that could be a huge advantage for a "student athlete" of this genre.
Since ESPN airs this event and it has to be profitable, when will sponsers be introduced. I cannot wait to see who Nike (custom made slacks and button downs) has coming in this year to defend the spelling bee!
Oh where would it stop!
Posted By : Chris Lucas
On the age basis, I can see how these topics come ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 16:14:00
On the age basis, I can see how these topics come up, but otherwise, I don't see it any differently from televised poker events, in which many (most) pro players have one or more sponsors, exempted tournaments, et cetera.
Posted By : tim in tampa
I think it's amazing that anyone thinks Thomas sho...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 16:29:00
I think it's amazing that anyone thinks Thomas should go higher than 7. This is his third year playing basketball and he's still very raw. I think JG hits it right on the head. I don't always agree with their, assessments 100%, but they do their homework.
Kind of makes me nauseous that a writer is subject to repercussions for making an honest assessment of a player's chances. It makes me nauseous that the art of spin trumps all.
Posted By : cgcatsfan
What I find interesting is that Italy's antitrust ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 16:50:00
What I find interesting is that Italy's antitrust authority is actually trying to create incentives to stimulate more competition among agents. This is not a good move because increased competition among sports agents is what fuels the unethical behavior and would result in even more unscrupulous agents who will do anything in order to land or keep a client.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
JG,
When you say that the NBA "reads our st...
Message posted on : 2006-06-02 - 21:22:00
JG,
When you say that the NBA "reads our stuff everyday" and that you have an "open dialogue with a number of the teams," are you saying that teams are actually influenced by what round you believe a player should be drafted and that their draft decisions are influenced by your player rankings? I don't doubt that you have a good relationship with scouts or that you probably have some factual information on players that might be beneficial to scouts in their evaluations of players. For example, in baseball, players are often timed in the 60 yd. dash by a privately-owned scouting service, which is often useful information for scouts to have.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Mr. Armstrong has "jumped" the srarting line on th...
Message posted on : 2006-06-03 - 13:51:00
Mr. Armstrong has "jumped" the srarting line on this one.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Wasn't there a NYTimes article on this subject a f...
Message posted on : 2006-06-03 - 15:01:00
Wasn't there a NYTimes article on this subject a few months back? Is the NCAA only looking into this stuff because the public has some hard facts on it now?
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
The NCAA has to maintain the quality of its produc...
Message posted on : 2006-06-03 - 18:51:00
The NCAA has to maintain the quality of its product because if fans/advertisers know that the product is not a truthful, moral, or whatever adjective you want to throw in there then its isn't going to sell as well. The NCAA doesn't want its product to become perceived like professional sports, which is that it is all about the money. Ignoring this issue that has become public knowledge would just prove that NCAA only cares about the profit margin.
Posted By : Sports Overload
There is a MLB association for Jewish people. And ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-03 - 19:19:00
There is a MLB association for Jewish people. And last week the Florida Marlins recognized the Jewish religion by handing out Mike Jacobs jerseys to several fans who attended the Mets game. It turned out that Mike Jacobs is not even Jewish.
Posted By : tommie
Both good points. I think the NY Times article ab...
Message posted on : 2006-06-03 - 21:00:00
Both good points. I think the NY Times article about the school in Miami is what really brought the issue to the spotlight and provided the spark for the NCAA to launch the investigation. But according to the NCAA, they have been "concerned" about the issue for several years.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
This opinion is just about Basketball in general.W...
Message posted on : 2006-06-04 - 05:41:00
This opinion is just about Basketball in general.Why does politics have to control so much of our sports world?Doesn't it control enough of our natural every day life already?My question is about officials in basketball since we are in the thick of this sport right now.Why do officials seem to favor a particular player during the playoffs in particular?Why do the High officials let this go on for so long?Do they think that we don't know anything about the game?Do they think we are that stupid,that we don't know the game or the rules?Especially when it is broadcast right in front of us!We're not blind you know!They seem to let certain things go and let teams get away with murder!They give respect to some stars and let other stars suffer!It certaianly is not consistent with the sport during the regular season.I think the commisioner needs to retire especially since he has done a poor job during his tenure as the head of basketball!The officiating reminds me of the officials during the Russians vs. the USA when they kept giving the Russinas a reason to win the Gold Medal during the Gold medal round which was eventully givin to the Russians!Which was clearly an injustice because it involed politics!I see the same thing happening right now because of money!The big markets are so involved right now.They give no respect to the established teams and let other teams like the German player get away with every foul in the book!Do we owe the Germans something that I am not aware of?It is obvious that they do not want especially S.A. in the FINALS!That is most definitely clear but Detroit,the networks baby!?Has Detroit become the new L.A.?I do not want to be a part of this dilemma!It is sad that the media has so much control over the world!They seem to dictate to the rest of us!I'm very dissapointed in the rules here in the USA for any sport!
Posted By : Anonymous
For the NCAA, being "concerned" is like me not sur...
Message posted on : 2006-06-04 - 23:31:00
For the NCAA, being "concerned" is like me not sure what movie to rent at blockbuster or what shirt to wear on my date coming up. I'm sure it hasn't been causing anyone on the NCAA committee to lose much sleep. If the media puts pressure on the NCAA to act then it becomes a completely different issue.
Posted By : Sports Overload
Cristian,
Aren't you contradicting yourself...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 09:28:00
Cristian,
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
First, you say that NBA teams and GMs are influenced by a mock draft websites such as draftexpress.com.
"Unfortunately, sites like draftexpress, and draft.net do receive the attention they do in the sense that you have players and teams making decisions in some part to what is being reported on their sites."
Then you say that regardless of what a these sites say, it doesn't change the player's stock. Furthermore, fans like me and "draft experts" from mock draft sites can't predict what actual NBA GMs are going to do anyways.
"Regardless of whether or not draftexpress "likes" a certain player, doesn't change that player's ability nor does it change their draft stock. Furthermore, none of us are privy to who in the NBA likes who and where they like them, so let's not give these sites too much credit and act like they are providing any source of fact."
So which is it?
Does a site like draftexpress.com have influence or not?
-HINrichPolice
Posted By : Justin
The question would be, is there a significant amou...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 12:16:00
The question would be, is there a significant amount of fans who pay attention solely to fantasy leagues and do not follow "real baseball?" My guess is that the vast majority of fantasy-league players play the fantasy leagues in addition to watching baseball and rooting for a team as usual, rather than in replacement. It's hard for me to see fantasy leagues taking a hit on ticket sales.
Posted By : Adam
Just FYI - on the age thing, there is no minimum a...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 13:32:00
Just FYI - on the age thing, there is no minimum age. Just a maximum age.
(sighs) Yes I watched the live ESPN coverage this year.
Posted By : Brad
(For full disclosure, I play in 5-7 fantasy league...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 14:03:00
(For full disclosure, I play in 5-7 fantasy leagues per sport (NBA, MLB, NFL) each year and am an self-described addict.)
The idea that participation in fantasy sports negatively impacts attendance or viewership could not be further from the truth. As for attendance, I don't see it having any impact in any sport. You go to a game because you enjoy the sport or for the experience. I don't see how fantasy sports would act as a replacement for either; there's some word for that I vaguely remember from econ but it is slipping my mind.
As for live viewing on television, I think there is a difference between the NFL/NBA and MLB. With the former you can get instant gratification and I think fantasy sports have driven ratings up, not down. You turn on the game and can instantly see whether Lebron is in the game or whether the Colts are on offense. What then? You go into fan mode and root. You get frustrated when Gooden missed another bunny costing your team an assist; you yell at Peyton for throwing to Harrison instead of Wayne. And you don't get those same experiences from checking a boxscore or watching highlights. I'm willing to bet that a large chunk of NFL Sunday Ticket purchases in particular are driven by guys who are NFL fans, yes, but who want to be able to monitor all of their players on Sunday. The networks have also taken notice and now include some type of “fantasy� feature in all of their football broadcasts.
With MLB, I just don't think it makes any difference. I tuned into to the Sunday night game last night because Lackey was pitching, but in general, unless you have a SP in the game, watching baseball doesn't add a lot to the fantasy experience. But I've never heard from people that they watch fewer games on TV because of fantasy baseball, so again, I just don't think you are dealing with substitute products.
In general, my experience—and that of everyone I know and have played with—is that fantasy leagues supplement our interest in the real game, rather than replace it.
Posted By : RPS
Fantasy Baseball is the most misunderstood phenome...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 14:31:00
Fantasy Baseball is the most misunderstood phenomenon in all of sports.
I'm a lawyer, member of my local municipal legislative board, husband and father of two--and I participate in two FBLs. A sportswriter suggesting that I need a life (or that I have time on my hands--how's the soccer in Germany, eh George?) is absurd and insulting.
What is fantasy baseball, then? Its not gambling (the greatest difference between fantasy baseball and fantasy football is that FF is really for gamblers)--its a way to do three things:
1--keep in touch with college or grad school friends in distant places. My leagues include members from all four US time zones and England.
2--enjoy baseball. I know more about, and care more about, baseball as a whole than ever before because I now take 15-20 minutes of each day and review news on all 26 teams and some minor league players. I would not follow the Yankees any more or less than I do now if there was no FB, but I would certainly have no interest at all in the a triple-A 2B for the Angels. Instead, I not only know who Howie Kendrick is, I'm looking forward to his rookie season.
3--have something to think about other than family and work. Like too many Americans, I have too much of a life--I'm so buried in commitments and obligations and responsibilities, I barely get an hour a day to myself. Rather than imperil my hobby, MLB should be thrilled I choose to use my precious free time on baseball. Time and money spent on sports is hard to justify for a busy, working adult--MLB should follow the NFL lead and do everything it can to keep my interest.
Posted By : Anonymous
Maybe in a minority of fantasy bseball leagues, th...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 14:53:00
Maybe in a minority of fantasy bseball leagues, there is no money at stake. For all the others, it is indeed a form of gambling - competition whereby the winners gain money and the losers lose money.
And to return to the substance of the article here, it is indeed more important for MLB to focus its energies on reclaiming the part of its fan base that it has lost than it is for MLB to engage in some economically driven legal contest with fantasy league participants.
Posted By : The Sports Curmudgeon
That was a great writing and all, but it really ta...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 15:06:00
That was a great writing and all, but it really talked more about the economic issues for the idividual, not really the legal issues involved. My question is would be, what right would a league such as the NBA, who is allowed to act as a monopoly, have by placing age restrictments on their players? Is that not age discrimination at its finest? Also, when do the Lakers, Suns, etc. get to act on thier best intrest? I feel this is one of many places where the league is overstepping its boundries. I would like to hear the opinion of someone with greater legal knowledge than I.
Posted By : Brett
Amare doesnt belong and we all know it. Everyone t...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 15:13:00
Amare doesnt belong and we all know it. Everyone that plays with steve nash, if they are a good athlete, is made to look 100 times better than they are.
Posted By : Brett
the data looks great and all, and I must first say...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 15:18:00
the data looks great and all, and I must first say that you have a valid point. But, what percentage of the NBA went to school for 4, 3, 2, 1, or 0 years would help analyze the data better. I am not calling your claim incorrect, but I am saying that this is not enough data.
Posted By : Brett
MLB is a business, and it is a business' job to ge...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 15:47:00
MLB is a business, and it is a business' job to generate revenue for iyts stakeholders. That is what MLB is protecting here when it requires fantasy leagues to buy a license if they want to commercially exploit MLB's product. It's no different than the movie and music industries cracking down on pirated products.
Posted By : john
"It's no different than the movie and music indust...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 16:20:00
"It's no different than the movie and music industries cracking down on pirated products." Uh, John, it is very different. We are talking statistics here, not audio, not video, not broadcasting. We are talking names and numbers and that's it. We are not talking about produced sound or recorded performances.
Posted By : Anonymous
Sub issues in this case include freedom of speech,...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 22:31:00
Sub issues in this case include freedom of speech, public benefit, use of celebrity names, property ownership among others.
If Major League Baseball Advanced Media (MLBAM) wins this case could it create a monopolistic situation?
Probhibiting individuals from participating in fantasy leagues by using player statistics (available daily in almost all newspaper, on TV and the radio)by charging a much larger fee now paid by most fantasy players (some games are even free)could have a chilling effect on the "every day fans" ability to participate.
I think the courts will rule in the publics favor and the fact that player statistics have been in the public domain for so long.
My neck is out on this one.
Posted By : Richard Mock
"I think the courts will rule in the publics favor...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 22:36:00
"I think the courts will rule in the publics favor and the fact that player statistics have been in the public domain for so long." Are you kidding me? Of course the courts will. Claims of intellectual property here are simply euphemisms for greed and the public's "right to know" shall prevail in the end.
Posted By : Anonymous
Greed has trumped the public's right to know many ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-05 - 23:08:00
Greed has trumped the public's right to know many times.
My concern is if these parties decide to mediate this issue then the public's "right to participate" may be lost.
Posted By : Richard Mock
The rise of fantasy baseball has been one of the m...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 01:03:00
The rise of fantasy baseball has been one of the major reasons for the sport's surge during the 1980s and 1990s through today. The growth in fastasy sports in general has coincided with the huge sports boom during the past 25 years, but having covered sports in some form for most of my adult life, no sport has benefitted from "fantasy" games the way baseball has. It has helped generate year-round coverage of the sport and encouraged fans to follow players on teams other than their own (and young players that in previous eras wouldn't have drawn attention from anyone not related to them).
Baseball owners (like all sports owners) are greedy. If they see someone with two nickels to rub together, they want at least one of them. However, as long as stats are freely distributed to/via the media, it will be hard for the owners to make a case (though they may be able to control team names/logos, the names and numbers are freely available. Should they succeed, they may kill the golden goose.
Posted By : jkreiser7
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 05:01:00
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Posted By : Sports Gambling
Baeball is a much harder sport to follow. I do no...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 05:03:00
Baeball is a much harder sport to follow. I do not have the time to follow all the teams for 166 games each year. Where football you can follow the teams week by week instead of everyday
Posted By : Sports Gambling
I can understand that the NBA wants everyone to dr...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 05:07:00
I can understand that the NBA wants everyone to dress professional, but these are grown men and the way they dresss is part of the whole basketball culture, I see no problem with dressing how they want. Its entertainment for goodness sake
Posted By : Sports Gambling
People just have to complain about something. Fant...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 08:09:00
People just have to complain about something. Fantasy Sports are just for fun and a great way to follow players. If your buddies put a league together and you guys all play against each other, how could there be anything wrong with that? Fantasy Sports get complained about more than actual gambling, how does that make any sense?
Posted By : Sports Overload
This isn't about MLB wanting to shut out fantasy l...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 08:50:00
This isn't about MLB wanting to shut out fantasy leagues, it's simply whether MLB gets to share in the profits. The claim here involves misappropriation of players' names used in combination with their individual statistics (not MLB's intellectual property rights in team names, logos, game stats, etc.). MLB is asserting this claim through a license it received from the MLBPA, which assigned to MLB the rights to use the players' names for this purpose. So MLB is really stepping into the shoes of the players and asserting a claim of misappropriation of name and likeness.
Some courts hold that in order to establish such a claim, the defendant (here the fantasy league) must be using the plaintiff's name or likeness without consent in an "endorsement" capacity. Here, the fantasy league is going to argue that there is nothing that can be construed as the players' endorsing one fantasy league over another (i.e. if Nike used a player's name without consent, that would cause confusion to the public as to whether the player is saying that Nike is better than Adidas and the player would have a claim against Nike).
MLB is going to argue that the use of the names and stats is not being used for a newsworthy purpose and that fantasy leagues are profiting off the players' investment without their consent and without paying for it. For example, there is precedent holding that baseball card companies must pay a fee for the use of the players' names, pictures and stats. On the one hand, these card companies are clearly profiting and it doesn't have a newsworthy purpose, but on the other hand, there is no confusion to the public as to whether players are endorsing topps over fleer. There are other cases outside of the sports/celebrity context as well, in which plaintiffs have been successful without having to prove an "endorsement" element when the defendant is profiting off the plaintiff's name and likeness and there is not a newsworthy component involved.
This is an interesting case because it has a huge impact on lots of things (baseball cards, board games, etc.).
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Actually if you followed Tom's boxing career befor...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 10:12:00
Actually if you followed Tom's boxing career before he came to ND, you would realize that he would be making LOTS of money in boxing, not because of his name, but because at one point he was considered to be one of the best amateur fighters out there.
Posted By : Brett
This amount of religion in a professional setting ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 10:18:00
This amount of religion in a professional setting is not only wrong, but tacky. It is tasteless and completely out of line for the work place. It is fine to have codes of conduct, and if you dont want playboys in your clubhouse, that is fine, but to openly base your team off of "christian morals, is way out of line
Posted By : Brett
And let's not forget the fact these kids wear numb...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 10:22:00
And let's not forget the fact these kids wear numbers. Can they use them for marketing? Sell them to other kids who might have a "lucky" number?
(A sub-issue of intellectual property could arise, just in case a kid sells his number after having scribbled something on the back of it during a particularly challenging word. A windfall for the number purchaser?)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
I received the original "Rotisserie League Basebal...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 10:43:00
I received the original "Rotisserie League Baseball" book as a Christmas gift in the early 80s. The next baseball season the neighborhood had established a Roto league. That continued through high school, college, etc. Sometimes there are modest amounts of money involved, sometimes not.
Even when money is involved, it is NEVER the issue. You join to enjoy the game (both fantasy and real) and to prove that you can best your friends. Getting $250 for winning your league pales in comparison to the pride you feel when you win and the rights you gain to trash talk your best friends until they threaten to never talk to you again...at least not until the next season starts when they will try to gain those same rights for themselves.
As Rick said, MLB has never objected to the existence of fantasy leagues. It just has a problem with ESPN, Yahoo (etc.) capitalizing on them. Those services are not new...simply more accessible. In the late 80s a number of fantasy stat providers would compile a rotisserie league's stats. The commish would send in the raw data and the service would compile the stats and send back the standings, etc.
That was by snail mail and it wasn't a booming business, so MLB does not care.
MLB's complaint is really in the same vein as their purported ownership of player statistics. ESPN and Yahoo already have the stats...they are really just compiling them and providing a computer framework for the fantasy product.
I don't see how this is anything other than greed by the owners. Fantasy baseball promotes major league baseball...period. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't like baseball (like some of the MLB owners) or has never played fantasy baseball. Believe me, if Pujols is on your fantasy team, you are much more likely to buy his MLB-licensed jersey at the local sporting goods store than if you see 24 Pujols plate appearances per season on ESPN.
If MLB succeeds, the Yahoos and ESPNs will pay for the rights and pass those on to consumers. Most consumers will be annoyed at MLB. Some consumers will view it as cost-prohibitive and simply not play.
Those who stop playing fantasy baseball will not immediately rush out and buy season tickets. Hell, most of them don't live in a major league city anyway.
Being rich and being smart are two uncorrelated concepts, and MLB has always been the "poster sport" for that concept.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
1. Because I have a fantasy team in all three maj...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 11:32:00
1. Because I have a fantasy team in all three major sports, I have the DirectTv package in all three sports. I spend more money and time on sports than I did before. Like betting, but better, it makes every game interesting; not just your home town team.
2. The allure is to prove you know more than others about something (anything). What difference does it make if its around the water cooler talking politics, in a pompous article, or in a fantasy sports game?
3. Even if MLB wins, how they intend to enforce it will be a mystery. Don't forget, fantasy sports existed long before the internet became popular. We crunched the numbers with pen and paper, and will do so again before paying absurd fees to MLB or their designees.
Posted By : smittybanton
Just to clarify, the Yahoo's and ESPN's already pa...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 11:36:00
Just to clarify, the Yahoo's and ESPN's already pay for the right to use players names and statistics together. I really don;t see this as greed on the part of the league and the players. Why should these fantasy leagues (like Sandbox.com), have the right to earn significant dollars using the names and identities of others? Why shouldn't the players share in the profits from the use of their names and statistics together? Rick's analogy is a good one -- the analogy to trading card companies having to pay the players for the right to use their name and likeness on a trading card.
Posted By : john
I don't think the card companies are paying for th...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 14:36:00
I don't think the card companies are paying for the statistics on the back or the right to say "Chipper Jones, 3b, Atlanta Braves." No one would buy a card if that's all it said. The card companies are paying for the right to display player photos associated with team logos and such?
Haven't there been some cases where a player signed with a card company even though it didn't have an MLB license. I seem to recall that the player's photo appeared, but the team logos were airbrushed off.
I don't think it is a necessary component of a fantasy service that those things are involved. I see, however, that Sandbox.com is using the team logos near a player's name. That is probably a problem. Sandbox is not, however, displaying player pages with photos.
If Sandbox removed the logo wouldn't MLB's case be weak, unless it claims a property interest in the stats (which hasn't worked in the past)? MLB will crumble its fan base if it wants to put a stranglehold on use of the statistics.
Maybe MLB ought to pay the fantasy services a marketing fee for promoting the sport.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Actually, it's quite smart. You know, "loose lips ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 14:56:00
Actually, it's quite smart. You know, "loose lips sink ships." Or, "the walls have ears."
Posted By : Anonymous
Obviously, there is a lot of confusion over this i...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 15:00:00
Obviously, there is a lot of confusion over this issue. The actual rights at issue here are the players' rights. The players' respective right of publicity. The MLB is involved because MLB Advanced Media, a separately-owned affiliate of MLB, licensed the rights from the Players Association, which had aggregated the players' rights (individual players assigned their rights in this area to the MLBPA).
The fact that the fantasy leagues only use the players names and statistics as opposed to their photographs doesn't mean the players have no rights. The right of publicity attaches to any characteristic that a reasonable person would identify with a player -- name, likeness, voice, etc. Simply put, third parties can't use an individual's name or identity for commercial purposes without such individual's consent.
Posted By : john
Okay, let's try this, John. Then, according to you...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 15:12:00
Okay, let's try this, John. Then, according to you logic, newspapers cannot publish names and stats either, right? Newspapers are in it for business, right? How do fantasy leagues differ from newspapers or websites (which have advertising)?
Posted By : Anonymous
I would argue that names and statistics are a matt...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 15:19:00
I would argue that names and statistics are a matter of public domain and not licensible. Times have a changed.
Posted By : Anonymous
Newspapers use the names and stats for legitimate ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 15:43:00
Newspapers use the names and stats for legitimate editorial purposes. That has always been an exception to individuals' right of publicity. A newspaper can write an article that incidentally mentions that Brad Pitt was seen driving a Mercedes, but Mercedes can't advertise that Brad Pitt drives one of its cars.
Posted By : john
The minor league umpire strike is going to be the ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 15:52:00
The minor league umpire strike is going to be the downfall of the current format of professional baseball umpiring in its entirety. The umpires are demanding to be paid as if umpiring in the minor leagues is a "career". What "career" pays you handsomely for 6 months work? I was a college senior and I was looking at the possibility of attending umpire school or entering the education field. I was fortunate enough to acquire a teaching job right out of college. Baseball umpiring has been a hobby for me, nothing more. I just recently enjoyed my rookie season as an NCAA umpire. I loved every minute of it. I even served as a "replacement" umpire. People can say what they can about the replacement umpires. The problem the AMLU has is that the umpires serving as replacements have more maturity and in many cases more expereince than the umpires who are on strike. And while the AMLU focuses their ire at the replacements, guess who is laughing all the way to the bank? That's right the owners. While I support the AMLU and their battle for better pay and benefits, they brought this on themselves.
Posted By : Anonymous
I see. So really what needs to happen is we need a...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 16:09:00
I see. So really what needs to happen is we need a court to determine once and for all whether or not names and stats count as protectable property in the context of fantasy sports. I understand your point about editorial, but it would help if we had a court make a legal decision on this. Just so you know, I do not agree with your assertion that names and stats are protected under right of publicity, but I won't lose sleep if a court opines otherwise.
Posted By : Anonymous
A new development on this story - Peter Gammons ju...
Message posted on : 2006-06-06 - 23:03:00
A new development on this story - Peter Gammons just reported on Baseball Tonight that at least two high draft picks made it known that they did not want to sign with the Colorado Rockies after hearing about the religious identity of the team.
Not sure how much stock you should put into the statement by Gammons, but we could be hearing more about this in the days to come.
Posted By : Satchmo
john:
CBC's response is that they are not a...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 01:54:00
john:
CBC's response is that they are not advertising "Albert Pujols plays fantasy baseball"; rather, they are incidentally mentioning that he went 2 for 4 last night. (At least that is my understanding of it).
It should be noted that MLB took almost the exact opposite position, i.e., CBC's current position, a few years ago when sued by several players. I don't purport to be familiar with that case, but from what I have read it would seem to be tough for MLB to reconcile why they have a 1st amendment right to present historical facts in merchandise which they are selling, but fantasy baseball operators do not have a right to present historical facts in the services in which they offer.
The case raises alot of interesting legal issues, but I would be very surprised if MLB is successful.
Posted By : RPS
An interesting joke I heard on television today: F...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 02:58:00
An interesting joke I heard on television today: Fantasy football is basically Dungeons and Dragons for all the jocks who used to beat up the kids who played Dungeons and Dragons.
Posted By : Jason
Azcentral has the pdf of the affidavit
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 10:22:00
Azcentral has the pdf of the affidavit available - http://www.azcentral.com/pdfs/060706grimsley.pdf
I've just skimmed it, but a few questions
1) Why on page 3 does it only look for documents and items (#3, #4, #5, #6) dated after 1/1/2000? Do they think Grimsley was using or had more contact with using players after that date? The first part of p 13 of the pdf indicates otherwise although the use of Deca was post-2000.
2) Since they pretty much caught Grimsley red-handed, why would he stop cooperating now?
3) What should we make of Grimsley's statements about Latin players being a good source for amphetamines?
4) What should we make of Grimsley's statement that California teams have easier access due to proximity to Mexico? He was only an Angel for a short period of time...
Posted By : Satchmo
Hold on, this isn't a fake humorous story, this is...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 13:22:00
Hold on, this isn't a fake humorous story, this is for real.
Posted By : Adam
This is a real story. In fact, I'm pretty sure th...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 13:38:00
This is a real story. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is not the first time either.
Dianetics sounds like some kind of fancy fuel-injection system.
Posted By : Satchmo
General Query: Why in the world have the feds not ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 21:29:00
General Query: Why in the world have the feds not gone after the competitive bodybuilding community? I mean it would be the end of that "sport" entirely.
Posted By : Anonymous
"General Query: Why in the world have the feds not...
Message posted on : 2006-06-07 - 21:56:00
"General Query: Why in the world have the feds not gone after the competitive bodybuilding community? I mean it would be the end of that "sport" entirely."
My best answer is that it's because the "sport" of competitive bodybuilding doesn't compare to mainstream sports such as baseball in terms of dollars and publicity.
Posted By : Anonymous
Satchmo, thanks for the link (I'm adding it to the...
Message posted on : 2006-06-08 - 00:23:00
Satchmo, thanks for the link (I'm adding it to the main post).
With respect to your first question (why only look for docs dated after 1/1/2000), the statute of limitations for most common tax offenses is six year. So the IRS agents are looking only for documents that could be the basis of a valid, non-limited action.
As for the quesiton about Grimsley's "Latin players" comment, that struck me as quite odd too. I think we are to conclude that Grimsley is not just a cheater and a user, but also a racist!
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I think the "Latin Players" as they are described ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-08 - 01:18:00
I think the "Latin Players" as they are described in the PDF file will be much happier if they remain known as "Latin Players" rather than use the real name. The guy was probably as vague as possible when they allowed it.
Doesn't necessarily make him a racist. Maybe he is, but I wouldn't be quite so quick to call him one; that's a pretty strong word to throw out just from reading a paragraph that he didn't write.
Posted By : cj
I would hate to disparage such an upright paragon ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-08 - 11:00:00
I would hate to disparage such an upright paragon of virtue.
He may not have written the paragraph, but those are "his words." Certainly true that the particularly guilty "Latin players" may prefer to be identified only by group affiliation, but how can he not be considered a racist for making a claim that "Latin players," as a group, were the best to go for to get the juice? My guess is that Latin players would say one should go to Grimsely
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
And now Deadspin tells us that one of the redacted...
Message posted on : 2006-06-08 - 22:47:00
And now Deadspin tells us that one of the redacted names, the one who gave Grimsley the name of someone to get amphetamines and then HGH from, is possibly Chris Mihlfeld, who is also Albert Pujols' personal trainer. Mihlfeld has been Pujols' personal trainer for about 7 years.
It doesn't mean Pujols is guilty, but . . . yikes. That's not a good association. Sorry if this isn't sports law related - after all, no one knows if Pujols is involved, or if the redacted name really is Miehfeld's.
Still, I'd be devastated if Pujols was implicated. For some reason, perhaps irrationally so, I had always figured that he was clean.
Posted By : Satchmo
I get the same feeling when I think about the enfo...
Message posted on : 2006-06-08 - 23:35:00
I get the same feeling when I think about the enforcement of anti-scalping laws as I get anytime government decides it knows what's best for two people willing to engage in a consensual exchange. It's rather amazing how little knowledge of rudimentary economics our decisionmakers apparently have.
"He also ruled that Herman, though he suffered no monetary loss, may have been injured by his inability to purchase a ticket except at an inflated price." How can you describe the market value of something as inflated? Am I injured because I find the face value of $80 to be inflated and won't pay it? How else are we to allocate scarce resources if not to adjust price? Perhaps the Red Sox and Yankees should play as many times as it takes so that the stadium won't sell out. I'm sure they have a 50 game series in them.
I have friends who are lifelong Steelers fans and had anti-scalping laws been enforced, they would not have been able to attend Super Bowl 40. Similarly, I wouldn't have been able to see Radiohead last week. They played a 3,500 seat theater in Philadelphia and charged $41 a ticket. Their typical tours sell out 20,000 seat outdoor amphitheaters. Could they possibly not have forseen me paying $150 per ticket on eBay?
The best way to sell tickets to popular events is through a dutch auction. This would eliminate most scalping because the price paid would reflect the total marginal cost/benefit of those who wanted to attend.
If nothing else, ticket speculation should be considered legal form of investment.
Posted By : Josh
I guess this will continue to be a never-ending di...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 03:41:00
I guess this will continue to be a never-ending dilemma both for the people who try to regulate the problem and the people who could potentially be affected by the regulation. As far as I am aware of, there have been some small steps taken to prevent scalping for bigger and perhaps more international sporting events, such as putting the name of the buyer of the ticket on the actual tickets…etc. but given the number of people who enters the stadium and given the fact that the games can not be delayed for broadcasting purposes, the scope and the practicality of such enforcement for anti-scalping laws will continue to be problematic. I am far from being an expert on the anti-scalping policy, but given the variability of different anti-scalping laws across different states (or even countries) and given that we now have those expensive ‘packages' where the tickets are sold with hotel stays and other entertainment options, the regulation would be extremely difficult, if not, impossible. I guess the dutch auction suggested by Josh (above) might be one way to do it, but the ticket prices would be way higher than what already is considered to be an expensive ticket for average Americans…or foreigners who live in the US, like myself. This, I would think, would not create good public relations for the professional and armature sports (like the FIFA or the NCAA). Every time I try to think about this issue, I feel like I keeping going in the same circle and never get anywhere…
Sokki
Posted By : Sokki
Interesting read... Its a shame to see this happen...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 09:18:00
Interesting read... Its a shame to see this happen to such a great event.
G
Posted By : Darksky Alaskan Malamutes
Lol, I can only imagine she was lucky enough to ha...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 09:32:00
Lol, I can only imagine she was lucky enough to have purchased the "Mc Unhappy Meal" ;)
G
Posted By : Darksky Alaskan Malamutes
It saddens me to see not only this level of bullyi...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 09:43:00
It saddens me to see not only this level of bullying behaviour from a teacher but the active recruitment of the fellow class mates. It just shows you get exactly what you pay for when it comes to teaching staff.
I hope that proud Denver fan had the smarts to let that fools tyres down in the lunch break. If he didn't I sure as heck will.
G
Posted By : Darksky Alaskan Malamutes
This presents an interesting issue of two markets....
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 09:49:00
This presents an interesting issue of two markets. In the primary market, the professional sports franchise needs to sell their tickets at a below market value price to maximize their cumulative profit, ensuring that the average family (and their kids - the next generation of fan) can come to see the team play. In the secondary market, you have scalpers/ticket resellers who realize that professional sports franchises undervalue their tickets and act rationally to seize that value for themselves.
In an effort to combat this, professional sports franchises have begun to charge "premium" prices for particular games. But this does not ensure that the supply of tickets will meet the demand.
But for government and the courts to intercede into this market seems absurd! Who, exactly, needs protection from scalpers/resellers? If a scalper values a ticket for a particular game at Value X, he does so because he believes a consumer will also value that ticket at Value X. The only entity that "loses" is the professional sports franchise...and as discussed above, this is an acceptable short-term loss to secure long-term gain through fan support.
Posted By : The Author
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 10:28:00
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Posted By : Satchmo
Also, interesting blog post
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 10:32:00
Also, interesting blog post regarding the Seattle Mariners and scalpers.
Posted By : Satchmo
What exactly are the benefits of anti-scalping law...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 10:52:00
What exactly are the benefits of anti-scalping laws? The way I understand it, they exist for several reasons:
1) Owners don't see the extra profits. That said, people still attend the games, purchase concessions, park their cars, and buy merchandise. If the demand is there, the owners will still make profits.
So even though the owner might not get "market value" on revenue for his own ticket, he is the one who set the opening ticket price (which necessarily, cannot be at "market value" for places like Fenway), and he's still taking profits from the presence of scalped ticket holders.
2) To keep scalpers from being a public nuisance. This applies to both scalpers outside venues and scalpers who will jam phone lines when tickets go on sale to buy up as many tickets as they can.
But if the presence of scalpers is directly related to demand for tickets, why shouldn't they be allowed to make a profit?
Is the law just trying to create an additional clause on the contract between the ticket holder and the franchise?
Am I grossly mistaken in this interpretation?
The Holder - Must purchase the ticket at face value, unless the Franchise allows a discount or other rate, and can transfer the rights of the contract, but may not make a profit off that transfer. Can elect not to attend the event, which voids the single-use ticket and does not give the Holder right to claim a refund or ask for replacement ticket.
The Franchise - Must provide entrance into event to ticket-holder. Event must take place (if it doesn't the Franchise has the obligation to refund or provide an alternate ticket to a like event). Has the right to enforce stadium policies. Has the right to tell ticket holder to vacate premises upon completion of the event. Has the right to display and use image of attendant at sporting event, etc. etc.
3) To keep scalpers from driving up ticket prices by monopolizing availability. Although I don't think this was ever the primary reason for instituting anti-scalping laws, since scalpers have never joined to form a single monopolistic entity (right?), isn't this the underlying fear?
To a certain extent, I suppose this (price inflation, not monopolistic behavior) is what we're seeing in high-demand events like baseball at Fenway Park.
But this is also partially due to extremely high demand and the large amount of season tickets sold, to either individual or corporate entities, which then reduces individual game availability and drives up value of tickets. And incidentally, season tickets are a large source of scalped tickets - it says as much in the article - season seat owners can never go to all the games, or give away all the tickets.
So couldn't the scalping and price inflation be the team's fault for providing so many season tickets? Could you argue that if you sell so many season tickets, scalping is the natural and inevitable result?
Also, last year, for some reason, scalpers were claiming that Mass. anti-scalping law didn't apply to events in Boston. Something about the city licensing events. Was this loophole ever closed or addressed?
Posted By : Satchmo
I don't think saying the Latin players have the go...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 11:48:00
I don't think saying the Latin players have the goods is an example of racism.
I don't think it is a statement about race or ethnic background at all. I think it is a statement about hispanic major league baseball players and the sources of drugs Grimsley has seen in the sport.
In the name of generating more controversy I don't think we ought to expansively interpret his statement as casting aspersions on hispanics generally. In other words, we should not interpret his statement to mean that hispanics in the United States are more likely to be a source of illicit substances, or that drug use is somehow attributable to that race or ethic background.
However, would it really be shocking if the foreign-born hispanic players were found to be the best sources of illegal drugs in major league baseball? Now, before you call me a racist, consider that the U.S. government maintains a list of the "majors" -- i.e., the countries that are the biggest sources of illegal drugs in the U.S.
The latest list I found was fall 2004: Afghanistan, The Bahamas, Bolivia, Brazil, Burma, China, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Guatemala, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Laos, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela and Vietnam. The other central american countries are listed as "regions of concern."
Notice anything? How many ballplayers are from Afghanistan, Burma, China, Haiti, India, Laos, Nigeria, Pakistan and Vietnam that would still "know someone" back home?
I'm willing to view any government report with a healthy skepticism (particularly in this administration). The report also does not identify what percentage of illegal drugs in the U.S. come from outside the U.S. As a country, we have a habit of blaming someone else. I don't present the report as definitive.
I approached it another way too. In 2005, there were 12 suspensions in major league baseball for steroid use. Here's the list: Alex Sanchez, Jorge Piedra, Agustin Montero, Jamal Strong, Juan Rincon, Rafael Betancourt, Rafael Palmeiro, Ryan Franklin, Mike Morse, Carlos Almanzar, Felix Heredia and Matt Lawton.
Seven of the 12 are foreign born hispanic players (Piedra was born in California). Of course this is a users list, not a suppliers list. It also represents only 12 people who got caught.
Let me emphasize that I am not saying hispanic players are the source of the drug problem in baseball. I am saying, however, that it wouldn't shock me if the foreign-born hispanic players were better sources than the players from other countries; and that we shouldn't be so quick to jump on Grimsley's statement and call it racist.
Anyone read Canseco's book? I'd be curious if he comments on hispanic players as sources.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
If a Dianetics team driver gets injured in the rac...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 11:53:00
If a Dianetics team driver gets injured in the race, will doctors be permitted to assist him?
The answer is apparently yes, contrary to popular belief. Scientologists permit doctors to diagnose and treat physical ailments. However, treatment of mental ailments is supposed to be done through spiritual processes.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Sounds like MLB clubs don't like someone else gett...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 11:58:00
Sounds like MLB clubs don't like someone else getting the premium ticket price. We know they have influence over legislators. Probably gave them some free tickets to premium games to grease the wheels.
More importantly: Josh, you saw Radiohead? Whatever you paid was worth it.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
The "Math guy" commenting directly above me as (no...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 14:18:00
The "Math guy" commenting directly above me as (not surprisingly) "anonymous" is not only arrogant, but is wrong. The correct percentage is 139,000%. And you teach math? God help your students!
Posted By : Real Math Guy
Question: Can Congress pass a law that would with...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 16:46:00
Question: Can Congress pass a law that would withstand judicial scrutiny that makes some, or all, labor law protection available to unions only if the management-labor agreement incorporates (upon a request by management) that blood testing procedures set forth in Federal Regulations.
Posted By : Jennifer
Personally, I think they should reach a compromise...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 16:54:00
Personally, I think they should reach a compromise here. Tickets are a hot commodity, and ticket brokers ensure that, albeit at an increased price, fans can get tickets without getting lucky or waiting in line. On the other hand, $80 tickets shouldn't skyrocket to $500 for a regular season game. Especially when the Yanks and Red Sox play on National TV 30 times a year and each and every one of them is on ESPN. Ridiculous.
Posted By : Adam Best
It scares me that a Harvard grad, Yale Law School ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 21:17:00
It scares me that a Harvard grad, Yale Law School grad, Law Professor would say this. How could you possibly come to the conclusion a guy is racist by that little amount of info. Saying 'Latin Player' is not racist. Unless you are going on something more than the paragraph from that PDF, that is a pretty skimpy amount of info to draw such a strong conclusion. One of the previous posts did a pretty good job of showing the possibility that maybe he was just telling the truth.
Calling someone racist is a very strong statement. It's not on the same level as saying someone eats a lot, must like movies, or is a poor reader (just examples of things that wouldn't matter)....it's serious and I sure hope you have a little more info to say something like that.
I'd say calling Grimsley racist on that little amount of info is about the same... as me saying you must be ultra-sensitive OR maybe just haven't known any Latin/Hispanic people and assumed the word Latin is a racial slur. Of course, I wouldn't do that b/c I don't have enough info, but it's wouldn't be much different.
So maybe you could explain what exactly makes his comments racist? That would help.
Quoted>>> I would hate to disparage such an upright paragon of virtue.
He may not have written the paragraph, but those are "his words." Certainly true that the particularly guilty "Latin players" may prefer to be identified only by group affiliation, but how can he not be considered a racist for making a claim that "Latin players," as a group, were the best to go for to get the juice? My guess is that Latin players would say one should go to Grimsely
Posted By : cj
Tommie: the same thing happened to David Cone.
...
Message posted on : 2006-06-09 - 21:34:00
Tommie: the same thing happened to David Cone.
From grammar school through college, many players have religion as a huge part of their athletic experience, from prayer and/or mass/services before or after games from Christian high schools to Yeshiva to the Grotto at ND. It is difficult for some people to make that separation at the next level. God knows it was difficult for our president to do when he came into office.
While many people want to keep religion out of the sports realm, religious faith is permeating many "public" aspects of our lives, including our faith in football.
It is now acceptable for Kanye West to rap about jesus, so why not Kwame Brown ballin' for buddha.
Posted By : Tim Epstein
Adam Best:
If an individual is willing to p...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 12:44:00
Adam Best:
If an individual is willing to pay $500.00 to see a game (any game) why not?
Posted By : Richard Mock
Thanks for these outstanding comments.
I...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 13:37:00
Thanks for these outstanding comments.
I tend to agree with those of you who find governmental price controls on baseball game tickets to be an odd public policy. While I think there are justifiable instances of price controls, I don't think entertainment options--even on resale--are examples of them.
Moreover, and as a matter of public policy, there are probably better mechanisms for getting tickets into the hands of lower- and medium-income persons than price controls on ticket resale (e.g., facilitating direct sales from team to consumer; lotteries with targeted recipients).
Posted By : Michael McCann
Grimsley may or may not be a racist. His comment ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 14:26:00
Grimsley may or may not be a racist. His comment about Latin players was a racist comment. Part of the problem here is that there is no universal definition of racism. CJ and ChapelHeel seem to come from the perspective that to be racist, or to make a racist comment, one must have a "dark heart" and believe less of the racial group one is disparaging. If that is the standard for racism, then no, Grimsley's comment is not, in itself, evidence of a racist. In fact, I quite imagine he appreciated the abundence of "Latin player" connections to get his various performance enhancing fixes.
But under a different view of racism, I think his comment about Latin players certainly is racist. Racist, under this alternative definition, means assuming something about someone because of their membership in a racial or ethnic group. That, to me, is exactly what saying "Latin players are the best source of drugs" does. Consider this: What is a "Latin player"? You might have some image that pops into mind when you read that term. But isn't that image itself the product of a stereotype, cobbled together impressions that mean nothing? A player from Puerto Rico (a US territory), a black Cuban, or a European Mexican player all likely fall into that stereotype (perhaps even a domestic born Latino, like Nomar Garciaparra). Yet these individuals have less in common with each other than some of them do with a white, upper middle class travel-league player from the suburbs. Any category unified only by the fact that its members' last names have their roots on the Iberian peninsula unnecessarily (and unfairly) sweeps in far too many far too diverse players.
That said, it doesn't really matter anyway. Grimsley's not (going to be) on trial for racism. He's got other things to worry about, and his reputation isn't (or shouldn't be) first on the list.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I don't believe in government price controls on an...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 15:19:00
I don't believe in government price controls on anything. The market will determine the price paid for everything.
People will pay the price for the things they want.
If the judges argument is valid, then my inability to buy a mercedes injures me b/c I can only buy one at an inflated price.
Stephen
Posted By : Stephen
Mike - your point about lotteries is interesting -...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 19:16:00
Mike - your point about lotteries is interesting - in the past, Broadway has conducted lotteries for good seats at cheap rates for shows in high demand - the best example is Rent, for which die-hard fans would line up daily to just have a chance at one of the tickets.
Lottery tickets are distributed the afternoon of the show, and a lottery is held for the two front rows of the theater. These seats are always reserved for the lottery.
Winning individuals are given the option of purchasing the seats at extremely low prices - $15-$20 apiece, if I remember correctly.
Why haven't we seen similar actions in sports?
Posted By : Satchmo
Well, using HGH illegally definatly breaks the tra...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 19:19:00
Well, using HGH illegally definatly breaks the training rules, does not conform to even a middling standard of personal conduct, and quite obviously goes against any principles of fair play or good sportsmanship. How is this even a close call?
Posted By : Adam
..."a team escape from its contractual obligations...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 19:20:00
..."a team escape from its contractual obligations if a player tests positive?"
Wouldn't it be great if that were the case. I mean what a deterrent. If you test positive, you are docked pay. The problem is a five letter word: MLBPA. The cure is a 7 letter word: Congress. (read like Stallone talking in Rambo)
Posted By : Anonymous
NFL: Look at the quote at the end of this one....h...
Message posted on : 2006-06-10 - 19:43:00
NFL: Look at the quote at the end of this one....http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2478299
Posted By : Anonymous
Geoffrey:
It depends what is in each indivi...
Message posted on : 2006-06-11 - 13:16:00
Geoffrey:
It depends what is in each individuals contract regarding use of "whatever".
Admissions can be re-tracted. The actual test results should prevail.
Being a "target" does not "prove" guilt.
It is not possible to make a decision in this case until Mr. Grimsley"s contract has been read.
Posted By : Richard Mock
Geoff, I agree with you that the loyalty clause ha...
Message posted on : 2006-06-11 - 14:30:00
Geoff, I agree with you that the loyalty clause has not been breached by Grimsley. Although MLB contracts are guaranteed, if Grimsley retired, then he's not entitled to the remainder of his salary under his contract. However, if a team unconditionally releases a veteran player during the term of a guaranteed contract, then the player is entitled to the remainder of his salary (offset by any salary paid by another team in the event the player is subsequently picked up after being released). Here D-backs are saying that he chose to retire and asked for his unconditional release. If true, I would say he doesn't get the remainder.
Posted By : Rick Karcher
Brett,
Thanks for your comment. The infor...
Message posted on : 2006-06-11 - 14:34:00
Brett,
Thanks for your comment. The information that you are asking about is provided under the lines for "All NBA players" in each category (41.1% of all NBA players went to college for 4 years; 20.9% for 3 years; 11.1% for 2 years; 6.5% for 1 year; 8.3% jumped from high school to the NBA; and 12.2% are international players).
Posted By : Michael McCann
Stephen,
You raise a very good point about ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-11 - 22:46:00
Stephen,
You raise a very good point about the role of government, although I believe there are instances when price controls are sensible, such as in providing medicines and other forms of health care to people in need. But tickets to Red Sox games seem quite distinct from medicines (unless, perhaps, they were world series tickets and the team hadn't won a world series in 86 years!).
Will,
It is an interesting question why we don't see these types of lotteries in sports. I need to give it more thought, but there could be a good post there.
Your comparison to Broadway shows is very intriguing. Maybe it has to do with the relative cultures of Broadway booking agencies and sports teams? I'm not sure. It's an interesting question.
Posted By : Michael McCann
Prof. McCann,
In response to your comments ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 04:40:00
Prof. McCann,
In response to your comments about the lotteries, many of the World Cup tickets have been sold to the lottery winners who entered to the winners of the lottery. I am in Germany doing my internship at the moment and I personally know of people who got the tickets through the lotteries. There seem, though, some downsides to that proposal which I wanted to share since the idea was brought up. I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh the costs, but I think it's worth asking the question. http://www.soccertimes.com/oped/2006/courtney/may28.htm.
Also, I heard on the CNN In ternational (the only TV channel I can understand in Germany) that may of the tickets in the black market comes from the corporate sponsors who, sometime, gets tens and hundreds of tickets in return for their sponsorship in cash or in kind. Those tickets usually don't come with any identifiable information of the ticket holders and inevitably get to the hands of the scalpers…or so as I heard.
Posted By : Sokki
Also I've heard from a reputable source that there...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 11:45:00
Also I've heard from a reputable source that there were 21 names on the affidavit and that another player already had a copy of the affidavit to see if his name was on it or not. What are the odds this leaks, about 50-75%?
Posted By : Ryguy
Terry Bradshaw: "Ride it when you're retired."
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 14:37:00
Terry Bradshaw: "Ride it when you're retired."
Posted By : Jeff
Hmmm. Are tennis umpires employees?
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 15:33:00
Hmmm. Are tennis umpires employees?
Posted By : Anonymous
"Badmouthing someone in public is almost never a g...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 15:36:00
"Badmouthing someone in public is almost never a good idea, particularly when you question their mental state."
How True, MM, but isn't this what sports has become (i.e., devolved to?)
Posted By : Anonymous
Anonymous:
Unfortunately, you're probably r...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 15:49:00
Anonymous:
Unfortunately, you're probably right. But I do think that there may be something qualitatively different/worse about indicating the results of an actual psychological exam (a presumably factual statement) from merely stating an opinion about one's mental state. But I agree with your general point: sports has clearly devolved.
Posted By : Michael McCann
There's no doubt that this is insulting, but I ver...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 16:39:00
There's no doubt that this is insulting, but I very much doubt, as you conclude, Mike, that any lawsuit will be involved.
For one, Patterson's statement is vague. As you say, there's no indication of what kind of test it was. He doesn't even say that Jefferson failed the test (perhaps he failed in that the Trail Blazers didn't draft him, but it's not made clear if he failed by the test standards).
From the context, since Jefferson refused to work out or take tests, it's possible that his performance wasn't failing, but were not good enough either, so that considering the test score in relation to his obstinacy about working out (which likely made more of an impact on Portland's view of him than the test itself), Portland decided to pass on him and take Telfair.
I'm not saying that the above was the way things occurred, but just as an illustration of how Patterson might defend his statement. There's no defending the fact that it was in bad taste of course.
Last, if Jefferson refused to work out for them or take psych tests, why did Portland only fly a psychologist down for one test? Couldn't they have sent a scout to watch him work out there? Or conducted more than one test? Was there one test because Jefferson insisted on only one (which would be strange) or because Portland weighs one psych test heavily in its prospect evaluations (which would be rather dumb)?
Posted By : Satchmo
I have read that his contract only forbade motorcy...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 17:06:00
I have read that his contract only forbade motorcycle riding during the season. I'm not sure if that's true or not but it would have an impact on the repercussions from his idiotic decision.
Posted By : The Fan's Attic
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is a perfect ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 18:46:00
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is a perfect example of survival of the fittest. And no, it most certainly should not be legislated.
Posted By : Anonymous
Will (Satchmo),
Thanks, those are excellent...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 20:02:00
Will (Satchmo),
Thanks, those are excellent points, and they raise additional and important questions about the context of Patterson's remarks. I agree with you that his remarks were ill-advised, if not worse. I wish we knew more about the nature of the examination and how heavily the Trail Blazers weighed it (and if anyone reading this has a copy of a typical psychological test administered by an NBA team or a NFL/MLB/NHL team, I would love to see it -- please shoot me an e-mail).
Posted By : Michael McCann
Sokki,
Thank you for that information. In t...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 20:08:00
Sokki,
Thank you for that information. In the next week, I plan on writing a post on ticket lotteries, and the info you provided will be very helpful. It will be interesting to further examine how they work in Germany and other countries and why they haven't caught on in the U.S.
Also, I hope your summer internship at the International Paralympic Committee in Germany is going well.
Posted By : Michael McCann
There shouls definately have been a clause in his ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 20:28:00
There shouls definately have been a clause in his contract that would not allow him to ride motorcycles.
If teams can put clause in contracts for players not ot play pick up games of basketball (aaron boone) then this certainly can be included.
Posted By : tommie
Here's the full language of the general "Other Act...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 21:07:00
Here's the full language of the general "Other Activities Clause" in the NFL standard player contract:
"3. OTHER ACTIVITIES. Without prior written consent of the Club, Player will not play football or engage in activities related to football otherwise than for Club or engage in any activity other than football which may involve a significant risk of personal injury. Player represents that he has special, exceptional and unique knowledge, skill, ability, and experience as a football player, the loss of which cannot be estimated with any certainty and cannot be fairly or adequately compensated by damages. Player therefore agrees that Club will have the right, in addition to any other right which Club may possess, to enjoin Player by appropriate proceedings from playing football or engaging in football-related activities other than for Club or from engaging in any activity other than football which may involve a significant risk of personal injury."
There may also be a seperate clause (fan's attic suggests there is) about motocycles for Ben R in particular. But the general clause would seem to ban riding a donorcycle - I mean motorcycle - both on and off season. Possible that Ben R negotiated for additional rights to ride a motorcyle, of course.
Posted By : Geoffrey Rapp
I think Prof. Rapp should get the Johnny on the sp...
Message posted on : 2006-06-12 - 21:38:00
I think Prof. Rapp should get the Johnny on the spot award for most CBA paragraphs provided on Sports Law Blog. (Seriously, that's great).
Posted By : Anonymous
Big Ben should be thanking his lucky stars. Can yo...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 11:23:00
Big Ben should be thanking his lucky stars. Can you imagine if he had suffered a broken back or was killed? This would be one of the saddest times in Steeler history. With all the money and success he could achieve, I don't see how he could possibly see that as a good idea.
Jason Williams had to end his career early, although he is trying to return, because of a motorcycle accident. With millions of dollars at risk, its just not smart.
Posted By : Sports Overload
It's somewhat moot now, since Grimsley's been susp...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 13:29:00
It's somewhat moot now, since Grimsley's been suspended for 50 games by MLB. Of course, he can challenge that suspension.
Posted By : Brian Moore
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is about as s...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 15:02:00
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is about as smart as playing football without a helmet. I wonder if Ben will play next season without his helmet.
Posted By : Anonymous
I agree with the first poster that the following c...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 16:25:00
I agree with the first poster that the following contract language is a problem for Grimsley:
"...pledges himself to the American public and to the Club to conform to high standards of personal conduct, fair play and good sportsmanship."
I don't know what the Club's standards are -- they are likely unpublished. Maybe they permit players to act in a way that prompts an FBI raid. Maybe they don't mind players cheating to enhance performance of the club, as long as they don't get caught.
But I'm pretty sure the American public's standards of personal conduct and fair play do not include FBI raids and the use of steroids, HGH and amphetamines. If they did, Congress wouldn't bother with hearings about such things, and drugs in sports would not be such a frequent topic in all forms of media.
I suppose it is possible to read the clause to say that the personal conduct, fair play and sportsmanship are standards established by some source other than the American public and the Club. In that case, the player is pledging to the American public he will abide by those standards, whatever they may be. To me, that would be a strained reading of the clause: if the Club/MLB and the American public's standards are not the reference point, what is?
Inclusion of the "American public" in the contract language indicates that MLB's intent is clearly to maintain at least an appearance of integrity vis-a-vis the public, probably to protect the game's historical reputation as the national passtime.
That's not entirely different than an executive's employment agreement and the corporation's concern about its own reputation with the American consumer. Arguably, this would qualify as an act of "moral turpitude" that would result in termination for cause under an executive employment agreement in corporate America. Of course, in corporate America he'd get a huge severance package from his/her pals on the board. :)
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Remember a world in which virtuoso classical music...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 16:30:00
Remember a world in which virtuoso classical musicians were afraid to get their hands caught in doors, or do any manual labor, for fear of messing with their livelihood?
I guess they (i) were more dedicated and (ii) needed the money.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Very interesting points. I am going to leave the "...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 17:21:00
Very interesting points. I am going to leave the "privacy law" matter aside, though, since you covered all the bases, and focus on one aspect: the Portland Trail Blazers lately have picked or traded for players whose off-court antics have made fans re-christen the team the "Jail Blazers". So, if those psychological exams had to prove that Jefferson is dumb, well, I guess that the success the Blazers' Front Office has had tracking his future players'psychological status before drafting them or trading for them speaks by itself. "Medice, cura te ipsum": if there's somebody who did not pass the exam, that's the Portland GM.
Legend
Posted By : Anonymous
...er, that was supposed to be pasttime.
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 17:27:00
...er, that was supposed to be pasttime.
Posted By : ChapelHeel
Nothing to see here ...move along....
Serio...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 19:43:00
Nothing to see here ...move along....
Seriously, two years after the fact an ambiguous statement and you want to clain defamement?
What world are you living in? I guess Charles Barkley should be getting sued on a nightly basis then....
Posted By : Anonymous
I hear you Rick. I am so sick of Fehr and all the ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 21:41:00
I hear you Rick. I am so sick of Fehr and all the babies in this sport. I hate to say it, but Bud Selig will go down in history as a Commissioner who had no desire to demonstrate leadership in any way. Further, when will the court of public opinion finally say that they are tired of Fehr and his gang of theives? I wish this could be done like it did in the NHL to Saskin and the Boys. This is utterly ridiculous.
Posted By : Anonymous
Can we hope that notorious diploma mill Corinthian...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 21:59:00
Can we hope that notorious diploma mill Corinthian College (Online) will be on the list?
Posted By : Anonymous
Legend,
Outstanding point. I hadn't really ...
Message posted on : 2006-06-13 - 22:30:00
Legend,
Outstanding point. I hadn't really considered the underlying subtext, but it is very salient: What kinds of players have the Blazers actually obtained/drafted? And you're right: based on those kinds of players, maybe they should employ a different psychological test!
Anonymous,
It sounds like you are a defense lawyer or an aspiring defense lawyer! They love to say "nothing to see here . . . move on"--it's almost like the first thing they teach you in Defense Lawyer Lingo 101. And usually when they make those statements, you know you should stop and take a close look.
As to the specifics of your comments, I'm not sure how Patterson's statement was "ambiguous." Here is what Patterson said: "We had to fly a psychologist down there for him to take a test. He had difficulty with it." Maybe I am missing something, but it sure sounds like Patterson is saying, rather lucidly, "We gave Al Jefferson a psychological exam and he had difficulty with it."
Also, I got a good laugh out of your Charles Barkley Red Herring. Ask yourself this: Has Charles Barkley ever revealed the results of a psychological exam administered by an NBA team to a potential draft pick, and if he has, was he an employee of that team when he did so? If the answer to that two-part question is "no", then I'm not sure why you mention him, because whatever he's said is obviously irrelevant to what's raised in this post. Nice try, though.
Thanks to you both for taking the time to comment.
Posted By : Michael McCann
